Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:46 pm I deliberately take some *distance* and always try to see what we discuss here in a larger context.

Or, you just find it convenient to keep the data in fuzzy, distant focus, perhaps. We shall soon see which it is, I expect.

On one hand I regard you as intelligent and informed, but on another you are an obscurantist and a fanatical brute.

Aaaaaad hominem. Both ways.

It neither matters if I am smart, nor harms the case if I am not. Even an inveterate liar is forced to tell the truth from time to time; so only specific claims are relevant, and they are tested for their own truthfulness, not by way of assassinating the character of the speaker.

That cuts both ways, by the way: you should not simply beleive somebody because you happen to like their character. You should still judge their individual claims for truthfulness...for even a generally-reliable person occasionally makes mistakes.

But back to the actual topic in hand: whether the Catholic institution is the exemplar of "Christianity," or not. I suggest we investigate the actual history of that institution, and see whether or not it has exceeded the basic definition in its syncretizing. What other procedure would you suggest?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: To be clear, I find it difficult to believe that Christ was the creator of the universe.

John 1:1-14. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Well, that didn't seem to change my view on things. Perhaps, a veiled (or overt) threat of eternal damnation, poison spiders crawling up my legs, or stretching me on a rack like the Church did during the Inquisition might help me see the light?

¯\_(*_*)_/¯

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:04 pm

And, at this point, I might need it if there is an afterlife because I feel closer than ever to the point of finding the answer to whether or not there is one.

What? I'm 56, almost broke and not getting any younger. Is it not true that I'm closer than ever to the point of finding out whether there is an afterlife or not?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:58 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:49 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:47 pm Man, the nutjobs are out in force today!

It's the nut job's job to crack the champion of all nutters from running the nut house.

OK, very well, but we need a soundtrack!

Come ye nutjobs from the farthest reaches of cyberspace! Come to a philosophy forum and barf it all up here!
Wait? What was the topic here?!? Christianity?

No! Let the mental cases have the floor, sane conversation is a bore!

But Christianity is a way of life, just as sufism is a way of life, no one denies this. But no need to sell people your way of life, people are not interested in anything but in the way they choose to live their own life, that choice has no charge.

There is nothing more boring than a con artist up to the same old tricks grandma told us about, I mean most people understand that by now. You are not just another scam artist telling us how to suck an egg are you?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:58 pm
No! Let the mental cases have the floor, sane conversation is a bore!

But I'm sure you find yourself fascinating, and that's the main thing.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:13 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:58 pm
No! Let the mental cases have the floor, sane conversation is a bore!

But I'm sure you find yourself fascinating, and that's the main thing.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:13 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:58 pm
No! Let the mental cases have the floor, sane conversation is a bore!

But I'm sure you find yourself fascinating, and that's the main thing.

Think of how bored he would be if all he did all day long was tell people things that they simply agreed to without any question. At least he has to think a little harder now. But, maybe the extra exertion into thinking is giving him a headache?

¯\_(*_*)_/¯

Ward Doctor AJ wrote: On one hand I regard you as intelligent and informed, but on another you are an obscurantist and a fanatical brute.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:04 pm Aaaaaad hominem.

No, it is strong language to describe what religious fundamentalism is and what fanaticism does.

Obscurantism is a valid term and all who study philosophy encounter it.

Fanaticism is also valid.

Brute is an exaggeration

[From Middle English, nonhuman, from Old French brut, from Latin brūtus, stupid; see gwerə- in Indo-European roots.]

I do mean here seeing the Christian project in a larger context. That is, seeing it for what it actually is and what it sees itself as.

He then...asks a larger question which is Why should one care? And that question is a good one.

What Christianity actually is? How could that possibly be clearer?! Christianity is a religious denomination that provides mere mortals with an ontological, teleological, deontological Script...an actual Scripture containing moral Commandments. Moral Commandments that must be obeyed on this side of the grave if one wants to attain immortality and salvation of the other side of it.

As for why mere mortals should care, well, how could that in turn possibly be clearer? One should care because given all of the many, many conflicting moral narratives there are to choose from, wouldn't one choose the path that will lead them to immortality and salvation? And don't Christians make accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal savior the only path there is?

All of the didactic/pedantic back and forth historical and philosophical complexities exchanged here don't mean squat next to that.

JUDGMENT DAY

That, ultimately, is what Christianity has always been about. The fate of your soul for all the rest of eternity.

Then the most crucial part of all...the part where those who are Christians here are able to convince those who are not why they should be. Why they must be. Why the Christian religion is the One True Path and none of the others.

And why on Earth, with so much at stake on both sides of the grave, did the Christian God not provide the faithful with anything more substantial than a "leap of faith" to Him?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:38 pm What Christianity actually is? How could that possibly be clearer?! Christianity is a religious denomination that provides mere mortals with an ontological, teleological, deontological Script...an actual Scripture containing moral Commandments. Moral Commandments that must be obeyed on this side of the grave if one wants to attain immortality and salvation of the other side of it.

As for why mere mortals should care, well, how could that in turn possibly be clearer? One should care because given all of the many, many conflicting moral narratives there are to choose from, wouldn't one chose the path that will lead them to immortality and salvation? And don't Christians make accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal savior the only path there is?

All of the didactic/pedantic back and forth historical and philosophical complexities exchanged here don't mean squat next to that.

JUDGMENT DAY

That, ultimately, is what Christianity has always been about. The fate of your soul for all the rest of eternity.

Thanks for that Iambiguous. But I do not think it is as clear as you wish it to be. Or, it results in wide ranges of choices and interpretations.

You could say that nothing could be less clear (than the narratives surrounding Christianity and its idealism).

wouldn't one chose the path that will lead them to immortality and salvation?

Just as so many elements in the Story can be taken allegorically -- and really there is no other option for most of us -- so too can the notions of immortality and salvation.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: To be clear, I find it difficult to believe that Christ was the creator of the universe.

John 1:1-14. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Well, that didn't seem to change my view on things. Perhaps, a veiled (or overt) threat of eternal damnation, poison spiders crawling up my legs, or stretching me on a rack like the Church did during the Inquisition might help me see the light?

¯\_(*_*)_/¯

It's not a "threat," Gary, and not from me. It's just a direct quotation from the Word of God, word for word. And you did ask.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:37 pm

Ward Doctor AJ wrote: On one hand I regard you as intelligent and informed, but on another you are an obscurantist and a fanatical brute.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:04 pm Aaaaaad hominem.

No, it is strong language to describe what religious fundamentalism is and what fanaticism does.

I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know what an ad hominem fallacy is, and to be capable of avoiding one. But for some reason, you don't seem to want to.

All I can figure out of that is that while you're smart enough to know, you think your supposed "audience" isn't, and that you can still get some mileage out of the fallacy, even though both you and I know it for what it is...because you think others can't possibly see through it.

In which case, you don't think very much of the intelligence of the average person here. And I think you might find out you're generally wrong about that. They just might be onto the ruse.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:56 pm
John 1:1-14. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John the human said...in the beginning was the word and the word was with God because the word was God, in other words, God was a word.

And we all know how words are formed, they are formed from sound, pure sound. Sound like anyother sound is formed when two surfaces rub together, this is not too hard to figure out, sound that are heard as words, that could have been any word, like ''waihyshee'' for example, funny how sound and light can maketh a story out of the pure nothingness that is sound and light.

Like where did sound and light come from? yeah, you guessed it, from exactly the same place we got all the other words from...silence appearing as sound.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:56 pm
John 1:1-14. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John the human said...

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:23 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:13 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:58 pm
No! Let the mental cases have the floor, sane conversation is a bore!

But I'm sure you find yourself fascinating, and that's the main thing.

Think of how bored he would be if all he did all day long was tell people things that they simply agreed to without any question. At least he has to think a little harder now. But, maybe the extra exertion into thinking is giving him a headache?

¯\_(*_*)_/¯

The nothingness got bored with being nothing, so it pretentiously fell in love with it's own reflection it mistakenly thought was something, but couldn't have been anything at all, since reflections are just spitting images of their reflectors, they too are nothing. So the boredom of being bored with being nothing in favor of being something that was also nothing continued on an on for at least it was some kind of wishful distraction that seemed pretty much convincing, that until death did these two nothingnesses did part, and boredom was no more, just like it never existed in the first place.