Philosophy Now Forum

accelafine wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 10:57 pm Here's a mystery. Why would grown men .....

What is it that interests you in "grown men", particularly?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 3:55 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 10:57 pm Here's a mystery. Why would grown men .....

What is it that interests you in "grown men", particularly?

You tell me why 'grown men' would be so interested in keeping children in a prepubescent state for as long as possible

Here's another question. Why would I keep getting logged out every time you are on here? Strange coincidence that.

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:01 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 3:55 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 10:57 pm Here's a mystery. Why would grown men .....

What is it that interests you in "grown men", particularly?

You tell me why 'grown men' would be so interested in keeping children in a prepubescent state for as long as possible

Here's another question. Why would I keep getting logged out every time you are on here? Strange coincidence that.

What is your interest in "grown men".
Are you gay?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:07 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:01 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 3:55 pm

What is it that interests you in "grown men", particularly?

You tell me why 'grown men' would be so interested in keeping children in a prepubescent state for as long as possible

Here's another question. Why would I keep getting logged out every time you are on here? Strange coincidence that.

What is your interest in "grown men".
Are you gay?

Why? Are you propositioning me?
What is your interest in keeping children prepubescent?

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:18 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:07 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:01 pm

You tell me why 'grown men' would be so interested in keeping children in a prepubescent state for as long as possible

Here's another question. Why would I keep getting logged out every time you are on here? Strange coincidence that.

What is your interest in "grown men".
Are you gay?

Why? Are you propositioning me?
What is your interest in keeping children prepubescent?

You are a fuckwit

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:20 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:18 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:07 pm

What is your interest in "grown men".
Are you gay?

Why? Are you propositioning me?
What is your interest in keeping children prepubescent?

You are a fuckwit

Are you sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'na na naa naa' too?

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:22 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:20 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:18 pm

Why? Are you propositioning me?
What is your interest in keeping children prepubescent?

You are a fuckwit

Are you sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'na na naa naa' too?

I have no need to ; you seem incapble of answering a simple single question.
Maybe you do not know that women exist too?
I would not be surrpsied if sexist were added to your long list of prejudices.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 1:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 10:06 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:21 am
Close. There's HUGE money in it, for one thing. A full "transgender" surgery costs about 63,000 US dollars. And that doesn't even get into the previous and follow-up treatments constantly needed to sustain it. But I think there's also an ideological motive involved, as well. For some, it's a virtue-signalling opportunity in the Munchausen style. For others, it's the ultimate expression of Queer Theory, in which everything normal is automatically traduced and twisted in order to "queer" it, just as D. Halperin espoused in the first significant paper on the subject, "The Normalization of Queer Theory." For others, it's a Neo-Marxist cause: another "oppressed" group that can be made permanently unhappy and thus make useful "revolutionaries." All these groups have their own reasons for advocating it.

In short, there are lots of reasons, but no good ones.

That's sad. As often happens, it sounds like big business is profiting enormously off of all this. That usually leads to overdiagnosis and overprescription. (At least it did for Prozac and the opioid epidemic.)

That's the thing, Gary...and yes, it's sad. You know what's even sadder? The suppression of the "Detransers." These are people who originally fully bought into the lie, and as a consequence, butchered their own bodies and mangled their social and sexual lives, shortened their own lifespan, gave themselves diseases like osteoporosis and sterility, and so on...and now are not allowed to speak about their experience, because the "Trans" lobby is so powerfully backed. This is a case of "Transers" devouring their own. And it's a horrendous injustice.

Can you provide a link to where people who destransitioned are being suppressed? I googled it but found no webpages making that claim. If it's happening, then, it's being suppressed pretty badly.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 5:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 1:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 10:06 am

That's sad. As often happens, it sounds like big business is profiting enormously off of all this. That usually leads to overdiagnosis and overprescription. (At least it did for Prozac and the opioid epidemic.)

That's the thing, Gary...and yes, it's sad. You know what's even sadder? The suppression of the "Detransers." These are people who originally fully bought into the lie, and as a consequence, butchered their own bodies and mangled their social and sexual lives, shortened their own lifespan, gave themselves diseases like osteoporosis and sterility, and so on...and now are not allowed to speak about their experience, because the "Trans" lobby is so powerfully backed. This is a case of "Transers" devouring their own. And it's a horrendous injustice.

Can you provide a link to where people who destransitioned are being suppressed? I googled it but found no webpages making that claim. If it's happening, then, it's being suppressed pretty badly.

That's exactly right. That's why you can't find things on detransitioners nearly so easily as you should be able to. Here's a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvjFSX0TB0 You'll also find that sources like WaPo and the NYT have been publishing articles claiming that detransitioners are a minority that doesn't need to impact our judgment about transers. You can find those articles on their sites.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 5:15 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:22 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:20 pm

You are a fuckwit

Are you sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'na na naa naa' too?

I have no need to ; you seem incapble of answering a simple single question.
Maybe you do not know that women exist too?
I would not be surrpsied if sexist were added to your long list of prejudices.

Your reading comprehension skills need a lot of work. Your second sentence is rich considering that you don't know what a woman is. According to you, a woman is a man in a dress with a bad wig and a bit of lippy.

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 8:45 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 5:15 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 4:22 pm

Are you sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'na na naa naa' too?

I have no need to ; you seem incapble of answering a simple single question.
Maybe you do not know that women exist too?
I would not be surrpsied if sexist were added to your long list of prejudices.

Your reading comprehension skills need a lot of work. Your second sentence is rich considering that you don't know what a woman is. According to you, a woman is a man in a dress with a bad wig and a bit of lippy.

TROLL

FFS. This pathetic little man lords it over this site believing he's some kind of intellectual giant. I've never seen such a bedraggled collection of know-nothings ANYWHERE.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 6:45 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 5:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2024 1:56 pm
That's the thing, Gary...and yes, it's sad. You know what's even sadder? The suppression of the "Detransers." These are people who originally fully bought into the lie, and as a consequence, butchered their own bodies and mangled their social and sexual lives, shortened their own lifespan, gave themselves diseases like osteoporosis and sterility, and so on...and now are not allowed to speak about their experience, because the "Trans" lobby is so powerfully backed. This is a case of "Transers" devouring their own. And it's a horrendous injustice.

Can you provide a link to where people who destransitioned are being suppressed? I googled it but found no webpages making that claim. If it's happening, then, it's being suppressed pretty badly.

That's exactly right. That's why you can't find things on detransitioners nearly so easily as you should be able to. Here's a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvjFSX0TB0 You'll also find that sources like WaPo and the NYT have been publishing articles claiming that detransitioners are a minority that doesn't need to impact our judgment about transers. You can find those articles on their sites.

I skimmed through the video. As far as I can tell it's a testimony of how going trans didn't fulfill the needs or expectations of the individual featured in it. Is the video being suppressed, though? Are people who regret having had gender surgery being silenced? Are people who want gender transition being deprived of hearing the testimony of people who regretted their decision. If so, then that is unethical.

Here's what I think. I think an underage person considering clinical gender change of him or herself should be presented with all the pros and cons of making such a decision. The decision should be entirely left up to them and their parents without someone making them any false promises or leading them along. If an underage person AND their parents still want to go through with the process even after being presented with all the facts, then let them do what they want to do with their own body and get a transition if that is their ultimate desire. The decision should be left entirely in their hands with full awareness that life most likely won't be a bed of roses after such surgery either.

If they change their mind after the process and decide to detransition, then they should be free to give lectures, talks or produce YouTube videos speaking of their experience and why they feel it was a bad decision and would be transitioners should be free as well as encouraged to see such testimonies.

Educating people with gender dysphoria should NOT be the responsibility of clinics that are compensated to perform such medical procedures. If a clinic is making money off of their procedures then they should not be trusted to give an objective education on the procedure. But, yes, a person who badly wants to change their gender ought to be able to do so if after being presented with all the pertinent information pro and con they decide to have such clinical procedures.

Parents should be included in the process of their underage children making the decision and should be educated as well on the process. If a parent vetoes the procedure on their underage child, then that veto should be respected by doctors. If a child vetoes the procedure then that child's decision should be respected by doctors. If and only if BOTH the child and parent unequivocally approve of and actively seek the procedure after being presented with all the evidence, facts and information then the procedure can be performed (all other things equal).

The above is my opinion on all this.

Doesn't really work when you have a transhausen parent who is determined to have a fashionable 'transchild'. Ever seen Jazz Jenning's mother? She a monstrous abomination.

accelafine wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 12:09 pm Doesn't really work when you have a transhausen parent who is determined to have a fashionable 'transchild'. Ever seen Jazz Jenning's mother? She a monstrous abomination.

I laid out my opinion as concisely as I could above. If BOTH the child and parent unequivocally want the procedure done to the child after reviewing all the pros and cons, then it's not my business to tell them they're making a mistake. I would never undergo surgery like that but if others want it, then they are free to get it. It's not my problem. I don't encourage something like that but it's not my business to make decisions like that for other people.