Philosophy Now Forum

There are about as many weirdo leftist teachers who encourage little kids to 'be whatever gender u feel u truly are, sweetheart' as there are whacko christian fundamentalists who take up arms and start cults and shit. Or rake in millions of dollars in televangelism. Or sexually molest students in Catholic schools, or cut themselves off from civilization entirely and live in a hut with beards and original leather bound old testament Bibles printed in like 1907 that never leaves their side and to which they refer, quoting frequently, when with the other twenty three people they exist with on the hill in south Dakota.

And to further the irony, the culprits on the left, the weirdo leftist school teachers, know far less about actual socialism than the creeps on the christian right know about Christianity. So at least they have an excuse to be a farce.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:18 am In most classes, they never mention Socialism at all. What they do is practice Socialism on the kids. They're not gracious enough to tell anybody what they're doing...especially not the kids to whom they're doing it. It's like when the Left was protesting, "We don't teach CRT, because it's a legal theory, and far too academic for little kids to know anything about." And all the while, they were doing CRT to them, but never announcing that's what they were doing. But doing it, they most certainly were. That's public schools.

You could be socialist without following CRT. You could follow CRT without being socialist.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:31 amThere are about as many weirdo leftist teachers who encourage little kids to 'be whatever gender u feel u truly are, sweetheart' as there are whacko christian fundamentalists who take up arms and start cults and shit. Or rake in millions of dollars in televangelism. Or sexually molest students in Catholic schools, or cut themselves off from civilization entirely and live in a hut with beards and original leather bound old testament Bibles printed in like 1907 that never leaves their side and to which they refer, quoting frequently, when with the other twenty three people they exist with on the hill in south Dakota.

And to further the irony, the culprits on the left, the weirdo leftist school teachers, know far less about actual socialism than the creeps on the christian right know about Christianity. So at least they have an excuse to be a farce.

Can you be "whatever gender u feel u truly are, sweetheart", though?

Isn't that the difference?

What is realer, your gender, or your God?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:29 am You could be socialist without following CRT. You could follow CRT without being socialist.

Well the former is true: there are Socialists who known nothing of CRT. Certainly Stalinists were not CRTists, because CRT came after Stalin, for example. But the latter is not so: all CRTists are definitely Socialists.

This is because CRTists are a subset within Socialism, not a distinct category from Socialism.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:27 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:29 am You could be socialist without following CRT. You could follow CRT without being socialist.

Well the former is true: there are Socialists who known nothing of CRT. Certainly Stalinists were not CRTists, because CRT came after Stalin, for example. But the latter is not so: all CRTists are definitely Socialists.

This is because CRTists are a subset within Socialism, not a distinct category from Socialism.

I don't see CRT's giving up capitalism as a rule. Yes, parts of CRT come out of Marxist theory, but most of these people are not talking about nationalizing the corporations or changing the nation over to a socialist economic system. I'm sure some are. And some leaders may make those noises. But the vast majority of college students, who form a strong core for the movement, are planning careers in a capitalist society. They are focusing on defining the sexuality, race, gender and so on of people are creating hierarchies and fight oppression and so on.

And all the teachers bringing CRT into schools are not also people calling for the end of capitalism.

As far as the first issue: there are socialists who focus on economic end of things and do not go in for the whole or most of CRT. Not just because they came before the arrival of CRT, but just because...well, they don't believe in it. I doubt all socialist union organizers are CRTers, no are many of their members who would support societal shifts towards socialism but not CRT. Others of course do.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:27 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:29 am You could be socialist without following CRT. You could follow CRT without being socialist.

Well the former is true: there are Socialists who known nothing of CRT. Certainly Stalinists were not CRTists, because CRT came after Stalin, for example. But the latter is not so: all CRTists are definitely Socialists.

This is because CRTists are a subset within Socialism, not a distinct category from Socialism.

I don't see CRT's giving up capitalism as a rule. Yes, parts of CRT come out of Marxist theory, but most of these people are not talking about nationalizing the corporations or changing the nation over to a socialist economic system. I'm sure some are. And some leaders may make those noises. But the vast majority of college students, who form a strong core for the movement, are planning careers in a capitalist society. They are focusing on defining the sexuality, race, gender and so on of people are creating hierarchies and fight oppression and so on.

That's because there's a huge knowledge-difference between the CRT ideologues and the masses of "useful idiots" they're manipulating.

You can see it: most people who buy into the Socialist program stop their thinking about it at a very superficial level, such as: "Racism is bad, hierarchy is oppressive, capitalism is theft, markets destroy the planet, patriarchy oppresses women, sexual liberty is good, structural inequity is unjust..." and so on, no more than a litany of cliches and slogans really, all served up to them by the deeper ideologues in order to mobilize the masses to do what the ideologues, the Marxist elite, cannot get done without the masses' help. They could never sell to undergrads, for example, that they are going to destroy all the social structures, careers, remunerations, incentives, property, opportunities and so on upon which those undergrads themselves are counting; nevertheless, that is exactly what the ideologues hope to do. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZ3QOIVW1w

And all the teachers bringing CRT into schools are not also people calling for the end of capitalism.

What would be most appalling for these teachers to find out is that they are key among the "useful idiot" set.

That would appall them, because they rightfully think of themselves as more intelligent than the average; it's what makes them qualified to be teachers, of course. But I can tell you first hand that the indoctrinators are not telling the teachers what they're inducting them into, nor why, nor what its outcomes really will be. The teachers, too, are being sold the slogans. And they've bought in wholesale. Just look at the causes celebre they arrange for the kids: assemblies and special days celebrating sexual deviancy, or unmanaged immigration practices, or vanilla virtue thinking, or globalism...they're solidly on the CRT bandwagon...most of them understanding only opaquely or not at all what they're buying into. And it's darn hard for anybody -- teacher or professor -- who thinks of himself/herself as an intellectual, ever to admit he/she has been fooled. It's a deep blow at their self-image, one few have the courage to accept.

As far as the first issue: there are socialists who focus on economic end of things and do not go in for the whole or most of CRT.

Another kind of "useful idiot." That's the person who will provide the economic strategies the Cultural Marxists need to fund and direct their ideological program. But if they're insufficiently ideologically-aware themselves, they're just pawns for these people, who will use their economic program to piggyback the entire package of utopian reforms.

I'm sorry to say it, but at one time, even I didn't see all of this. I had to do a lot of reading, and reading of incredibly turgid, boring ideological documents to discover what it was these people are really up to. But if you want to see the ideological elites at work, look at the politicians, media companies, militarists and business leaders who have jumped on board with the Socialist program: particularly, the jokers who show up at places like the WEF, and lead that crazy parade. That's the CRT "deep state."

But all of this is available and well-documented: see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgfs5a4vNQ

"Racism is bad, hierarchy is oppressive, capitalism is theft, markets destroy the planet, patriarchy oppresses women, sexual liberty is good, structural inequity is unjust..."

It's only becuz legitimate concerns like the above are brought to our attention by a mass of morons who do a terrible job at everything, that that talking points list is so lame.

A smart person like u, if so compelled, could produce a series of strong arguments in favor of those concerns if u had to. So then it isn't the nature of the concerns that are lame. It's the unphilosophical people and politicians that are voicing these concerns that's so lame.

Compare something plato might say about structural hierarchies to something a Shantel Williams BLM type who minored in political science in community college, author of a book that's sold eleven copies and aunt of two nephews currently incarcerated for marijuana charges cuz they was movin weight, might say. Mother of two. Struggling to make ends meet becuz nobody's buying the book and refuses to get a real job becuz she's entitled and on fire! (that girl is) so she hopes to make guest appearances on talk shows or even get some face time on CNN so she can quote Martin Luther King J, malcolm x, and mention her nephews.

Which one of these two is gonna say something really interesting?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:39 pm That's because there's a huge knowledge-difference between the CRT ideologues and the masses of "useful idiots" they're manipulating.

Sure, and as we know some of the idealogues are pretty capitalist also.

You once said regarding people who identify as Christians;

If one insists on the "self-identification' criterion, meaning that everybody who says, "I'm Christian" has to be regarded as such, absent any verification at all, then it will be a problem for such a person. But if one follows the word of God, it actually is very clear.

Earlier going so far as to class most identifying themselves as Christians as not.

Yet, when summing up people who participate in the identity politics of CRT as socialists, you are classifying them based on their identification with one part of the CRT program.

They are not socialists. They won't live like socialists. They don't live like socialists. Nor does Biden or the people surrounding him'or any of the liberals who seem to be supporting CRT. They buy into certain portions - or cynically use them to keep the cultural war going while they gain power, but these people are not socialists.

Some may well be, but the bulk of college students and school teachers, all these primarily middle class people, they will all slide into roles that are typically capitalist. They will vote for candidates that are not in any way socialist. Biden, Clinton - these are not socialists. They are in Wall St. pockets and so was Obama.

I believe in CRT means as much as self-identifying as Christian. And, in fact, you've said, I believe that atheists actually know there is a God. So, they aren't even atheists.

But when you wax dramatic about the current situation, you count them all as socialists.

They simply aren't.

Bernie Sanders, he's pretty damn socialist. And the CRT people just all over him.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:39 pm That's because there's a huge knowledge-difference between the CRT ideologues and the masses of "useful idiots" they're manipulating.

Sure, and as we know some of the idealogues are pretty capitalist also.

Very much so. And some of the most "capitalist" (to use a highly dubious term) are currently promoting Socialism as hard as they can...guys like Gates, Bezos, Soros, etc.

Now, why would people who are clearly devoted to their own gain, and who give away to the social good only a tiny portion of their massive revenue stream, and who keep getting richer and richer...be supporting Socialism?

Because for you and me, they want Socialism. But not for them. For them are the rich rewards of depriving everybody else of private property.

You once said regarding people who identify as Christians;

If one insists on the "self-identification' criterion, meaning that everybody who says, "I'm Christian" has to be regarded as such, absent any verification at all, then it will be a problem for such a person. But if one follows the word of God, it actually is very clear.

Earlier going so far as to class most identifying themselves as Christians as not.

Yet, when summing up people who participate in the identity politics of CRT as socialists, you are classifying them based on their identification with one part of the CRT program.

Your conclusion is incorrect. I did not say that all Socialists are CRTers (as you claim I did). I said that all CRTers are Socialists. The larger category is "Socialist," which includes all kinds of people, such as Stalinists, Maoists, hippie communitarians, and other various kinds of "useful idiots,": the subcategory, a segment within the larger set of Socialists, is CRTers. Those who understand the CRT dogma are thus a relatively smaller minority of Socialists.

It's like saying, "All beagles are dogs, but not all dogs are beagles." All CRTers are Socialists, but not all Socialists are CRTers. Or, to put it another way, there are lots of Socialists: not all are CRTers. But all CRTers are Socialists.

Do you see, now?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:42 pm "Racism is bad, hierarchy is oppressive, capitalism is theft, markets destroy the planet, patriarchy oppresses women, sexual liberty is good, structural inequity is unjust..."

It's only becuz legitimate concerns like the above are brought to our attention by a mass of morons who do a terrible job at everything, that that talking points list is so lame.

It's not that. It's that the CRTers know that the masses are best manipulated through sloganeering in sharp, simple terms. And they're not wrong. They learned from Hitler and the Soviets, and also from Mao, that The Big Lie (that's the technical term for the approach, from Mein Kampf, actually) works best. Complicated explanations only perplex and paralyze the masses: simple slogans work.

Look at advertising. Are any of their slogans complicated or intellectual? "Just do it." "It's the real thing." "Have it your way." "Like a good neighbour." "The best part of waking up." And are any of these corporations losing money by being simplistic, and even stupid in the way they appeal to the masses? These companies make billions.

As Mencken is said to have said, "No one in this world, so far as I know ... has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people." Unfortunately, the lowest and simplest appeals work best, when one is appealing to the mob.

A smart person like u, if so compelled, could produce a series of strong arguments in favor of those concerns if u had to.

Thank you...I think...I'm not sure that's a compliment, but I'll take it as that.

I think I could produce more complicated arguments for Socialism. But I couldn't produce honest or good arguments in favour of Socialism. I couldn't produce arguments of which I ought to be proud, or that would not entail me lying and suppressing obvious facts. And honesty's more important, even, than whether one can produce complex arguments.

If we educate children MERELY to obey the law, then we are not a democracy.
If we also do so MERELY to further their own ambitions and profit, then we are not an Altruist society’
If we educate children with the Responsibility to benefit the community and society, then we are a Responsible – Altruist democracy.