Philosophy Now Forum

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:53 pm

bobmax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:44 pm I am of the opinion that there is no means available other than ourselves.
For the simple reason that God wants everything.

I am not sure what that last sentence means, but I think ultimately we are responsible for our decisions and intuition plays a huge role, which i think is generally agreeing with you here.

Being able to rely only on ourselves can have two different meanings.

1) Facing becoming fearless, because becoming is the ultimate truth.

2) Having faith in the Truth, which appears as Nothing.

In the first case he is the nihilistic overman.

In the second case there is the awareness of the absolute Good. For which it is necessary to give up everything.
God wants everything.

bobmax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:00 pm Being able to rely only on ourselves can have two different meanings.

I mean, I rely on other people, especially my wife, and she me. But for decisions about my own body and experiences that directly affect only me, I have to choose. Also epistemologically, I either trust myself, generally or I don't. If I don't well, then there's not much I can do.

1) Facing becoming fearless, because becoming is the ultimate truth.

2) Having faith in the Truth, which appears as Nothing.

In the first case he is the nihilistic overman.

In the second case there is the awareness of the absolute Good. For which it is necessary to give up everything.
God wants everything.

I'm not quite down with either one. But I am not sure wht parts of these sentences mean. I do know nietschze. I don't think God wants everything or that we need to give up everything. But now we're getting a good ways away from Altered States of Consciousness.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:24 pm But now we're getting a good ways away from Altered States of Consciousness.

Are you sure?

Is it not the self that is challenged by these experiences?

Who am I?

And this having to look for the Truth within me... Because I can cling to nothing but myself.

And this compassion that at times takes me for this painful world...

And the hell I condemn me to because it's right!

Shouldn't this I die?

bobmax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:48 pm Are you sure?

Is it not the self that is challenged by these experiences?

There are so many different kinds of experiences. Some seem to, some expand the sense of self, some connect to lost pieces of self, some are very odd but do not challenge the sense of self...and on.

bobmax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:03 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:10 am The point that you have had such an experience is already an added knowledge that is different from the norms of the experiences of the majority. The difference is the nature, type, degrees and intensity of the experience.

I believe it is a good idea that every human experience ASC of the depersonalization type with a detachment of the ego where one feel the oneness with the universe.

You are both right.

What I meant is that these experiences do not allow for knowledge, as knowledge is usually understood.
In fact, they do not provide objective knowledge.
They provide no evidence that I can hold on to as certain.

I have done quite a bit of study into ASC so I am reasonably [btw not an expert] familiar with ASC.
At present there are already 'tons' of research and findings of Altered States of Consciousness, e.g.

• Altered States of Consciousness: Review of Experimental Data Obtained with a Multiple Techniques Approach
  Pavel V. Bundzen, Konstantin G. Korotkov, and Lars-Erick Unestahl
  https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ ... 2317371442

Since ASCs are well studied within the Scientific Framework, the findings of what features represent ASCs and their neural correlates would represent scientific facts which are thus objective as qualified.
But there are degrees to scientific objectivity depending on various conditions and as I had stated, there are differences to the nature, type, degrees and intensity of the ASC experiences.

From what you have posted, I inferred your sort of experience would qualify as ASC, thus it is "objective" knowledge as defined and qualified to the above perspective.

Rationally, if you compare what you experienced with what is studied, verified and defined by scientific researches to date you will note they match.
But somehow you have a different view on a personal basis.

Yet objective knowledge, the irrefutable proof, is not really "true" knowledge.
Instead, it is these experiences that awaken true knowledge.
Because the Truth can only be within us.

I believe what you termed "objective knowledge" and 'true' knowledge of Truth is considered within your own paradigm and framework which ignores the scientific framework.
Your is likely to be the Divine, Mystical or Theological Framework which has not been verified nor justified to be credible in contrast to the scientific framework [FSK].
Thus your assertions cannot be credible.

I have never tried to make sure I try these experiences.
Because I don't think you can really take action to make them happen.

ASCs can be intentionally repeated under scientific conditions with the expected ASC activity but the individuals may have varied experiences depending on their psychological conditions.
The scientific findings [from FmRI imaging] is that ASCs experiences are activated from similar neural correlates within the brain.
One reservation is, at present the scientific processes are very crude and scientists are continually refining the methods and processes toward higher precisions.

Rather, we need to open ourselves to the Truth, which is in us.

Looking more carefully where something doesn't add up. Letting ourselves be moved by the pathos of life, without closing ourselves off, but rather opening up and suffering with the world.
Then the experiences may or may not happen, but it is not up to us, as existing beings.

It is a surrender to ourselves, to who we really are.

Are you familiar with the Human Connectome Project [ongoing and progressing well] which like the Humane Genome Project, neuroscientists are targeting to map all the neurons in the brain with their activities and potential activities. This is a very complex task but it is feasible and tenable. [50 years ago the Hume Genome was accepted as impossible by all but now that is completed]

It is not likely that scientists will ever be able to link your "TRUTH" to any neural correlates after they have explored and mapped the complete or the majority of the brain neurons with their specific functions.

As highly hypothesized, it is more likely, your desperate search for 'Truth' with a capital T or God is the following
Temporal Epilepsy: God as a Psychological Derivative
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35084
When the Human Connectome Project is sufficiently advanced, scientists will be able to confirm strongly that the clinging to a God [or Truth] is linked to neural activities which can be easily tested and repeated.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:55 am Are you familiar with the Human Connectome Project [ongoing and progressing well] which like the Humane Genome Project, neuroscientists are targeting to map all the neurons in the brain with their activities and potential activities. This is a very complex task but it is feasible and tenable. [50 years ago the Hume Genome was accepted as impossible by all but now that is completed]

It is not likely that scientists will ever be able to link your "TRUTH" to any neural correlates after they have explored and mapped the complete or the majority of the brain neurons with their specific functions.

As highly hypothesized, it is more likely, your desperate search for 'Truth' with a capital T or God is the following
Temporal Epilepsy: God as a Psychological Derivative
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35084
When the Human Connectome Project is sufficiently advanced, scientists will be able to confirm strongly that the clinging to a God [or Truth] is linked to neural activities which can be easily tested and repeated.

I appreciate the way you put yourself.

In the passion that transpires from what you write I perceive your innocence.

And that's what really matters.

You would like to put some order in this confused world.
And your hope will not be disappointed, I'm sure.

But it will not be through a system that you will try to set up.

Instead, it will happen when you give up every possible system for the amazement of your being yourself.

bobmax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:07 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:55 am Are you familiar with the Human Connectome Project [ongoing and progressing well] which like the Humane Genome Project, neuroscientists are targeting to map all the neurons in the brain with their activities and potential activities. This is a very complex task but it is feasible and tenable. [50 years ago the Hume Genome was accepted as impossible by all but now that is completed]

It is not likely that scientists will ever be able to link your "TRUTH" to any neural correlates after they have explored and mapped the complete or the majority of the brain neurons with their specific functions.

As highly hypothesized, it is more likely, your desperate search for 'Truth' with a capital T or God is the following
Temporal Epilepsy: God as a Psychological Derivative
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35084
When the Human Connectome Project is sufficiently advanced, scientists will be able to confirm strongly that the clinging to a God [or Truth] is linked to neural activities which can be easily tested and repeated.

I appreciate the way you put yourself.

In the passion that transpires from what you write I perceive your innocence.

And that's what really matters.

You would like to put some order in this confused world.
And your hope will not be disappointed, I'm sure.

But it will not be through a system that you will try to set up.

Instead, it will happen when you give up every possible system for the amazement of your being yourself.

He just diagnosed you. Some guy over the Internet, thinks he knows it's likely you have temporal epilepsy. I'm not worried about you being negatively affected by this kind of hubris and idiocy. I just feel it it needs to be pointed out.
While temporal lobe epilepsy is the most common epilepsy we are still talking about a small percentage of the population.
The number of people with unique spiritual ideas who come to philosophy and other similar discussion forums, is actually very high.

Notice also the idiocy of say what scientists will find.

When the Human Connectome Project is sufficiently advanced, scientists will be able to confirm strongly that the clinging to a God [or Truth] is linked to neural activities which can be easily tested and repeated.

That is anti-science, what he just did there.
He says scientist WILL find results that support VA's opinions. He forgets that actually in real science you have to wait for results to speak as if your conclusions are facts.

Further, if he had some self-awareness, he would realize that as someone who was in a very controlling religious family/sect, who then left that toxic and very specific mileau, he may be biased in his predictions.

And he doesn't realize that...

It is not likely that scientists will ever be able to link your "TRUTH" to any neural correlates after they have explored and mapped the complete or the majority of the brain neurons with their specific functions.

contradicts his other statements. Of course, I know what he meant to say.

If he simply puts his ideas on the internet, putting forward his ideas in a general way, he can be wrong, he can mount poor arguments, but to specifically tell someone they likely have a major disease, is not merely irresponsible (it would be irresponsible even for a neurologist to do something like that online), but toxic.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:36 am He just diagnosed you. Some guy over the Internet, thinks he knows it's likely you have temporal epilepsy. I'm not worried about you being negatively affected by this kind of hubris and idiocy. I just feel it it needs to be pointed out.
While temporal lobe epilepsy is the most common epilepsy we are still talking about a small percentage of the population.
The number of people with unique spiritual ideas who come to philosophy and other similar discussion forums, is actually very high.

Notice also the idiocy of say what scientists will find.

When the Human Connectome Project is sufficiently advanced, scientists will be able to confirm strongly that the clinging to a God [or Truth] is linked to neural activities which can be easily tested and repeated.

That is anti-science, what he just did there.
He says scientist WILL find results that support VA's opinions. He forgets that actually in real science you have to wait for results to speak as if your conclusions are facts.

Further, if he had some self-awareness, he would realize that as someone who was in a very controlling religious family/sect, who then left that toxic and very specific mileau, he may be biased in his predictions.

And he doesn't realize that...

It is not likely that scientists will ever be able to link your "TRUTH" to any neural correlates after they have explored and mapped the complete or the majority of the brain neurons with their specific functions.

contradicts his other statements. Of course, I know what he meant to say.

If he simply puts his ideas on the internet, putting forward his ideas in a general way, he can be wrong, he can mount poor arguments, but to specifically tell someone they likely have a major disease, is not merely irresponsible (it would be irresponsible even for a neurologist to do something like that online), but toxic.

I agree with you.

But reading it I could not help but smile at this innocence.

Because I do not perceive evil in his words.
I am convinced of his good intentions.

It is the passion for the Truth that guides him, he is chasing it.
Even if he isn't aware of it yet. In fact now he denies it.

He would like to possess the Truth, while it is the Truth to possess him, totally

bobmax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:08 am I agree with you.

But reading it I could not help but smile at this innocence.

Oh, sure.

Because I do not perceive evil in his words.

Evil, nah.

I am convinced of his good intentions.

The road to hell and all that, but I don't disagree.

I should also have mentioned, not to you, but for the record, that of those with temporal lobe epilepsy only 1.3 % have religious experiences. And then, how many of these decide, on the basis of that, to believe in God? So, it's 1.3 % of a rare disease who even have those kinds of experiences and of those we don't know how many decide to base their belief on those experiences. But, he diagnosed....

Again, I say this not particularly to you, but just so it's here in the dialogue.

As if happens I live with someone with temporal lobe epilepsy. And whose seizures do not have a spiritual aspect. Of course, there are those few who do, but from where I sit, he just don't know what he's talking about.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:01 pm I should also have mentioned, not to you, but for the record, that of those with temporal lobe epilepsy only 1.3 % have religious experiences. And then, how many of these decide, on the basis of that, to believe in God? So, it's 1.3 % of a rare disease who even have those kinds of experiences and of those we don't know how many decide to base their belief on those experiences. But, he diagnosed....

Again, I say this not particularly to you, but just so it's here in the dialogue.

As if happens I live with someone with temporal lobe epilepsy. And whose seizures do not have a spiritual aspect. Of course, there are those few who do, but from where I sit, he just don't know what he's talking about.

Life is cruel at times and seems to unfold without any meaning.

And I think life is just like that.

But I also think it must be so.
Because we have to give the meaning ourselves.

Life questions us, asking us what is really important to us.
And our answer is the only freedom we are allowed.

We are just that answer we have to give.
To be or not to be.

When that answer has truly matured in us, it will all be accomplished.