compatibilism

[BigMike]

Please familiarize yourself with Coulomb's law and Newton's universal law of gravitation.

[bahman]

I have the highest hopes that everyone will be able to see through the illogic that these people are demonstrating in their line of reasoning and that they will be able to see through it. Everything about it, from the very beginning all the way to the very end, is total and utter nonsensical nonsense. Nothing but a total and massive waste of one's time; there is no other way to put it. It is evident that they do not possess even a single argument that can be used to support the position that they are taking in this debate, and it is very clear why this is the case. One might wonder how they could believe anything when they have no idea how or why they arrived at that belief in the first place. They are completely devoid of any substance. They resort to ridiculous answers in an attempt to make themselves appear humorous as a last ditch effort to save face.

I have an argument in favor of what I stated, laws of nature and necessity of mind. The existence of options requires a mind that is free.

[bahman]

Physics says that something that is not physical cannot have an effect on something that is. Even a single atom needs a force to move this way instead of that. This is the first law of motion from Newton.

Fortunately, there are only four possible forces in the whole universe:

1. gravity,
2. electromagnetism,
3. the weak nuclear force,
4. and the strong nuclear force.

Common to each is that they are interactions between physical objects. There is no force or interaction between "free will" and atoms. People who believe they can make things happen through their own non-physical free will, i.e., move particles in their brains and thus initiate nerve signals through non-physical "willpower," are, therefore, mistaken. Despite these fundamental truths, I have noticed that most people believe they possess such psychokinetic powers when they do not. But it is not the job of physics to explain why people are so delusional.

I ask libertarians and compatibilists: Which of the four existing forces is involved in executing your free will? This question is clear, fair, factual, and crucial to the discussion at hand. So please do not seek refuge in a confusing labyrinth of consciousness gobbledygook. Just answer the question.

What is physical? Physics just explains the relation between two states of matter. It does not explain what matter is.

[BigMike]

Physics says that something that is not physical cannot have an effect on something that is. Even a single atom needs a force to move this way instead of that. This is the first law of motion from Newton.

Fortunately, there are only four possible forces in the whole universe:

1. gravity,
2. electromagnetism,
3. the weak nuclear force,
4. and the strong nuclear force.

Common to each is that they are interactions between physical objects. There is no force or interaction between "free will" and atoms. People who believe they can make things happen through their own non-physical free will, i.e., move particles in their brains and thus initiate nerve signals through non-physical "willpower," are, therefore, mistaken. Despite these fundamental truths, I have noticed that most people believe they possess such psychokinetic powers when they do not. But it is not the job of physics to explain why people are so delusional.

I ask libertarians and compatibilists: Which of the four existing forces is involved in executing your free will? This question is clear, fair, factual, and crucial to the discussion at hand. So please do not seek refuge in a confusing labyrinth of consciousness gobbledygook. Just answer the question.

What is physical? Physics just explains the relation between two states of matter. It does not explain what matter is.

Just answer the question.

[iambiguous]

You sound like peacegirl over at ILP. We have no free will but if we read her father's book there's still hope of ridding the world of Evil.

Just to get this straight.

If I was to read a book on First Aid, you think that I would not be able to apply any of the knowledge I got from the book. I would not be able to make a splint or bandage a wound, for example. I would not be able to help anyone.

You think that reading the book would change nothing.

You think free-will is required just to read a book.

Is that right? Is that your position?

Nature to iambiguous:

I order you to give up!!



Oh, what the hell...

1] you were never able to not read the book
2] I was never able to not think what I do
3] everything that compelled you to read the book and everything that resulted from you having been compelled to read the book unfolds in the only possible reality

Only, sure, I'm no less skeptical of that than most here are. I really am convinced that I am calling all the shots here of my own volition. Just as the characters in the Matrix "lived" out their "reality"?

Again, back to the dreamworld that you are compelled by your brain matter to scoff at. In the dream you can also read the first-aid book and apply its knowledge to help others.

Then you wake up and think, "wow, I really thought I was reading the book and applying its knowledge...but it was only my brain creating this 'reality'!"

Then your brain compels you to assure yourself that in the waking world it really is you creating it.

Then [of course] back to this profound mystery:

All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

[bahman]

Physics says that something that is not physical cannot have an effect on something that is. Even a single atom needs a force to move this way instead of that. This is the first law of motion from Newton.

Fortunately, there are only four possible forces in the whole universe:

1. gravity,
2. electromagnetism,
3. the weak nuclear force,
4. and the strong nuclear force.

Common to each is that they are interactions between physical objects. There is no force or interaction between "free will" and atoms. People who believe they can make things happen through their own non-physical free will, i.e., move particles in their brains and thus initiate nerve signals through non-physical "willpower," are, therefore, mistaken. Despite these fundamental truths, I have noticed that most people believe they possess such psychokinetic powers when they do not. But it is not the job of physics to explain why people are so delusional.

I ask libertarians and compatibilists: Which of the four existing forces is involved in executing your free will? This question is clear, fair, factual, and crucial to the discussion at hand. So please do not seek refuge in a confusing labyrinth of consciousness gobbledygook. Just answer the question.

What is physical? Physics just explains the relation between two states of matter. It does not explain what matter is.

Just answer the question.

None. But the reality is not merely matter that apparently, physicists do not know what matter is. To understand reality one has to accept the existence of mind and qualia otherwise one faces all sorts of confusion such as compatibilism. That is true that matter does follow the laws of nature but the reality is not merely matter. We witness our freedom so free will must be real.

[iambiguous]

I ask libertarians and compatibilists: Which of the four existing forces is involved in executing your free will? This question is clear, fair, factual, and crucial to the discussion at hand. So please do not seek refuge in a confusing labyrinth of consciousness gobbledygook.

Click.

See, there he goes again...

Posing this to the libertarians as the libertarians themselves might pose it. As though he was actually free to opt to ask them his question as he chooses, and they are actually free to opt to answer it as they choose.

When, as some determinists insist, he and they and all that he and they think, feel, say and do is unfolding in the only possible reality.

That, in other words, even though they are compelled to answer his question only as they must, they are still guilty of "seeking refuge" if they don't concur with him.

Only, yeah, I'm the first to admit that going back to a definitive understanding of existence itself, he may well be closer to the whole truth here than I am.

[BigMike]

What is physical? Physics just explains the relation between two states of matter. It does not explain what matter is.

Just answer the question.

None. But the reality is not merely matter that apparently, physicists do not know what matter is. To understand reality one has to accept the existence of mind and qualia otherwise one faces all sorts of confusion such as compatibilism. That is true that matter does follow the laws of nature but the reality is not merely matter. We witness our freedom so free will must be real.

There is thus no force. Consequently, the neural signals in your brain have nothing to do with your free will. This includes the nerves from the motor cortex, which are responsible for muscle contraction and body movement. Specifically, the fact that momentum is always conserved proves that your free will is completely ineffective, powerless, useless, and pointless.

[Immanuel Can]

Which of the four existing forces is involved in executing your free will?[

Note the adamancy with which Mike seeks to compel his simplistic assumptions.

He wants you to take for granted that physics describes the entire world comprehensively, so the explanation of will, he thinks, has to be found in his four proposed "forces." And since they don't appear there, he wants to assert, that therefore "will" cannot be real.

But "love" is not found among his forces. Nor is "courage." "Truth" is not there, nor "reason," nor "logic." "Mathematics" is not physically verifiable, nor is anything in aesthetics. But Mike is not aware of that. No doubt he has some simplistic, mechanical or chemical pseudo-explanation for all of the above...they don't exist as real motivators, because they aren't capable of leveraging gravity, perhaps.

It's an argument that is evident in its reductionality, its presuppositionality and its inadequacy to the phenomena present in the real world. But he seems oblivious to all that, and wants to press his point anyway.

[BigMike]

I ask libertarians and compatibilists: Which of the four existing forces is involved in executing your free will? This question is clear, fair, factual, and crucial to the discussion at hand. So please do not seek refuge in a confusing labyrinth of consciousness gobbledygook.

Click.

See, there he goes again...

Posing this to the libertarians as the libertarians themselves might pose it. As though he was actually free to opt to ask them his question as he chooses, and they are actually free to opt to answer it as they choose.

When, as some determinists insist, he and they and all that he and they think, feel, say and do is unfolding in the only possible reality.

That, in other words, even though they are compelled to answer his question only as they must, they are still guilty of "seeking refuge" if they don't concur with him.

Only, yeah, I'm the first to admit that going back to a definitive understanding of existence itself, he may well be closer to the whole truth here than I am.

Just answer the question, please.

[BigMike]

I have the highest hopes that everyone will be able to see through the illogic that these people are demonstrating in their line of reasoning and that they will be able to see through it. Everything about it, from the very beginning all the way to the very end, is total and utter nonsensical nonsense. Nothing but a total and massive waste of one's time; there is no other way to put it. It is evident that they do not possess even a single argument that can be used to support the position that they are taking in this debate, and it is very clear why this is the case. One might wonder how they could believe anything when they have no idea how or why they arrived at that belief in the first place. They are completely devoid of any substance. They resort to ridiculous answers in an attempt to make themselves appear humorous as a last ditch effort to save face.

[BigMike]

We can now conclude that none of these self-proclaimed sages have produced anything of substance. Even what they claim to believe, they are hopelessly incapable of understanding, making any sense of, much less explaining. They are a group of fools. Emperors lacking clothing. Butt naked.

[Immanuel Can]

We can now conclude that none of these self-proclaimed sages have produced anything of substance. Even what they claim to believe, they are hopelessly incapable of understanding, making any sense of, much less explaining. They are a group of fools. Emperors lacking clothing. Butt naked.

Ah, our dear friend Mike has run out of ability to think, and has fallen to abusing his companions.

Having long ago been relegated to his "foes" file, I suspect, for having the temerity to offer objections to which he has no response, I'm probably not included among the latest of his interlocutors he's a abusing, but I would still be remiss if I did not point out that all this is merely....

Aaaaad Hominem.

[BigMike]

These idiots will almost certainly proceed in the same manner as before, pretending as though they are taking part in a meaningful conversation while continuing to wander aimlessly in circles. It is so ridiculous that words fail me. And so sad. Really sad.

[Immanuel Can]

And so sad. Really sad.

Yes, I'm sure BM is just filled with regret...and fatherly concern, no doubt, as well, that we all are manifestly so far beneath his substantial powers of sweet reason.

But then, in his world, that's what we were fated to be. At the dawn of time (whenever that was; Mike doesn't know) we were predetermined to be incapable of getting his point. And yet, strangely...and rather inconsistently, one must note...Mike is lamenting this fact, predestined though it was.

He can't even keep faith with himself. Why would he expect us to believe him?