Religious Experience

[tbieter]

IT DOESN'T MATTER

Despair ?

I checked out yor blog "How to ...prevent extinction".

It reminded me of C. S. Lewis' criticism of scientism (the view that the supreme goal of our species is to perpetuate itself at any expense) via his opposition to J. B. S. Haldane. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._B._S._Haldane

See also the brief discussion " a book to read" in the Book Club section of this forum.

If I understand, the aim of your blog is to displace religion with science.

[mark black]

tbieter,

Best not to speak of what I hope is said and done with now. So, you checked out the loneliest little blog on the web - that's great. Thanks for the heads up - my ignorance is infinite, and if as you say:

Ignorance of Richard Baron's book PROJECTS & VALUES - An Ethic for Today ( www.projectsandvalue.com ) is culpable.

...then infinitely culpable.

Are you aware the link doesn't work. I got the first chapter, but haven't read it yet. This list grows long and time short.

If I understand, the aim of your blog is to displace religion with science.

The aims of the blog are mainfold - but even on that single issue I think that too simplistic an interpretation, I say without offence intended. Being founded in epistemology, but dismissive of the subject/object, ought/is distinctions, perhaps it is to replace irrational faith with a perfectly rational hope that God exists. The latter does not conflict with recognition of the epistemological value of scientifically valid knowledge, but it's for other people to decide how to express thier spirituality. It is certainly my intent to show that the Church of Rome got it wrong, and the nation state inherited a backward approach to valid knowledge from the Church - but I have as much disdain for Haldane's claim that Marxism is true as religion's truth claims, or anyone else who would uphold a conventional idea as absolute truth - for it's a betrayal of human reason.
If I say more I will say much more...my mind is flooded with it, so, finger in the dyke, in direct reponse to your question I'd have to say no. The aim is political cooperation on the basis of science to prevent extinction.

mark.

[tbieter]

Thanks, Mark, for your advice regarding my faulty link to Richard's book. I have correctly the link. I wish that more forum members would buy and read the book. Rarely are we privileged to have access to the author of a book or books that we admire. I was a member of the American Maritain Association. One year the notice of the annual meeting arrived. I gasped - three or four authors, whose books I had read and admired, were on the agenda. Hearing my gasp and explanation for it, my wife said "You're going!" I went to the next five meetings and lunched and hung out with such folks. I was in philosophical heaven (pardon the religious term). Now, at least, I have a virtual Richard Baron.

I'm going to read your blog.

Tom

[mark black]

tbieter,

Maritian - I thought you said Martian. The Red Planet. God of War. No! Jacques Maritian, Catholic-realist philosopher...ah! You may not like my blog very much - but I'll still read RB's chapter, and if I like it order the book. Is he a Martian too?

mark.

[RachelAnn]

Is he [Richard Baron] a Martian too?

I thought Richard was from ----.

[amateurphilosophynerd]

amateurphilosophynerd, you sound positively sociopathic to be able to embrace god and dawkins with equal enthusiasm. i recommend politics for phd. mark.

LOL@mark black LOL LOL LOL
(nb I would LOVE to PhD one day but its fricken money and case of deficiencies that need remedying aggggh I am working on my own theories and trying to learn something on my very limited income. I would LOVE to have the knowledge of my discipline/s so much i could be trusted to teach it as PhD students do)

[Nick_A]

I was raised in a devout Roman Catholic family - Mass each Sunday, a weekly block rosary (we played for the conversion of Russia), meatless Fridays, frequent Confessions, etc.

I attended Catholic Schools through high school (grad. in 1960). The schools were run by Jesuits, so the education was Catholic/classical - very intellectually oriented. Latin was required. Every nstudent was urged to try college at least for one quarter, an economical state college being located four blocks away (provided that we immediately checked in at the Newman Center asap - I checked in and never returned) If you have ever seen an old black and white movie with Catholic scenes ( like "The Bells of St. Marys" with Bing Crosby and Ingred Bergman) you will experience the culture in which I was raised.

I contend that the philosopher who, in principle dismisses religion, is intellectually and aesthetically impoverished. To such folks, I have issued a challenge: Pick an intellectually oriented religious author (C.S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, Simone Weil, for example) and commit to to a project of reading all of their books over a long term and with an open mind. (Attention: Richard Baron and Psychonaut) I gently issued this challenge to a Marxist professor of philosophy ( who was very troubled after the Soviet Empire collapsed). I suggested some writers and assured him that he need not fear becoming dogmatic and a convert. He did some reading and a few years later he called and wanted the names of the Papal encyclicals that dealt with economics. It was obvious that he had become open minded relative to religous thought. A whole new world of experience was now open to him.

Finally, I once met an atheist professor of philosophy who told me that he had an aesthetic appreciation for that Catholic Church - and that he never missed the Midnight Mass at the cathedral on Christmas Eve.

I have often wondered if the ordinary person who was raised in a secular world was incapable of enjoying religious art and music? The atheist professor obviously was not. (but he was not ordinary - he was supremely open minded)

What do you think?

I hope that I have not offended anyone.

It has become the same with me. I have had bad experiences with the Catholic church as a teen but after reading those like Gurdjieff and Simone Weil, It became obvious that Kierkegaard's description of Christendom as man made Christianity was accurate. I had always experienced Christendom but was oblivious of Christianity.

That revelation allowed me to open to the sublime common sense I've found in Christianity.

[reasonvemotion]

My ubringing was atheist. As a child my standard answer to everything was "why" and still is, much to the chagrin (but always with humor) of the Tibetan monks, when I attend lectures at the Temple. My knowledge of the Scriptures, is self taught and I don't have any inclination to belong to any man made church as human nature as such is flawed. I continue to question.

[Kayla]

southern baptist mostly attending a church containing a good mix of religious crazies and fairly normal people

it went through several ministers across my life

one was asked to leave after his descriptions of hell gave children nightmares

he said that was the whole point but most southern baptists do not believe in hell and shit sufficiently to be willing to deal with screaming kids at 3 am

one was a drunk and was fired after he fell from the pulpit

the last one was a nutter and his claim that the bible explicitly forbids socialized medicine was too much even for the crazies and he was canned

the congregation decided to do without a minister after that

the church office lady now has a full time job instead of part time

and preaching is done mostly by the elders but anyone who is interested can give it a try with the elders' approval

so we can get a standard fire and brimstone sermon one week

and a liberal ecumenical sermon the next

so far the agreement to disagree has held

[tbieter]

southern baptist mostly attending a church containing a good mix of religious crazies and fairly normal people

it went through several ministers across my life

one was asked to leave after his descriptions of hell gave children nightmares

he said that was the whole point but most southern baptists do not believe in hell and shit sufficiently to be willing to deal with screaming kids at 3 am

one was a drunk and was fired after he fell from the pulpit

the last one was a nutter and his claim that the bible explicitly forbids socialized medicine was too much even for the crazies and he was canned

the congregation decided to do without a minister after that

the church office lady now has a full time job instead of part time

and preaching is done mostly by the elders but anyone who is interested can give it a try with the elders' approval

so we can get a standard fire and brimstone sermon one week

and a liberal ecumenical sermon the next

so far the agreement to disagree has held

My secretary grew up in the Southern Baptist church in Arkansas. Regarding SB pastors, I remember her stating: "They're mean."

[Kayla]

i am not a big fan of southern baptist pastors

but nowhere does the bible say every church needs one

sermons have gotten a lot more interesting since we ditched the last pastor and members of the congregations do the sermons

[Jonathan.s]

Grew up in a 'post-Christian' environment. Parents were lapsed, non-practicing Anglicans - my mother had a spiritual side, father less so, he was quite antagonistic towards organized Christianity. Accordingly he was not concerned when I choose not to be confirmed. However in my teens I had some vivid spiritual experiences. I didn't know what to make of them at the time, although as life has passed, it is clear that they were pretty significant. I did my first degree in Comparative Religion (along with anthropology, philosophy and psychology), in my late 20's. Am now just finishing a postgraduate degree in Buddhist Studies. I have been practising Buddhist meditation for quite some time now, but I also have a strong connection with elements of Christianity as well as with traditional philosophy. My religious outlook has never been particularly centred around the Bible; I feel much more at home with Indian and Chinese religions, Platonism and the gnostics. There are particular Christian texts and schools that I feel an affinity with but not the mainstream churches (although I am much more sympathetic to them, than I am to those who attack them).

I think there is such a state or condition as enlightenment or supreme awareness, which is a form of consciousness that is as different from ordinary human consciousness, as ordinary human consciousness is from animal consciousness. (This was the basic theory of a book called Cosmic Consciousness, by Canadian psychiatrist R M Bucke, published in 1901.) The various religious traditions arise from that awareness, although many of them have lost sight of it, or don't understand it or don't represent it any more.

[Kayla]

there is nothing extraordinary about spiritual experiences in my neck of the woods although there is a tendency for people to be all too willing to condemn 'wrong' spiritual experiences as being from satan

if someone were to say i prayed and god told me to get a suzuki swift rather than an aveo it would be perfectly normal - i suppose some people might think that a message to get a car this small could only come from satan

many matters from vital to trivial are trusted to god people talk to god and get answers on regular basis

i have seen atheists who move here and start with thinking people here are crazy and then start questioning their own sanity as god starts talking to them they usually do figure out that they are not crazy through

it happened to a classmate of mine last year he was really struggling with calculus it was making no sense to him

and then one day it started making sense and he was freaked out cause god explained it to him