Science , Fiction or Fact

[chaz wyman]

Chaz ,, your more than that ,, ???
me to , I'm a jack of all trades and sports,
but my belief system has a theme ,
if you are to make that theme , "knowledge"
you could see all sorts of things as knowledge ,,
if Atheism is just the answer to the god question for you ,
what about all the other supernatural aspects of religion ,
ie life after death , heaven hell and all that hocus pocus ,
there are many things we could give a small probability of being real ,
and many of these will conflict , some say there is no god , but spirituality ,
is my thing , I'm a medium , I talk to dead people ,
but there's no god ,!!!
so unlike me who makes my Atheism cover all superstitious nonsense ,
I will have to ask you about each subject individually ,
and you could say , theres no god , but Aliens have probed me ,,!!!
or your into Scientology , or homeopathy ,,,???

What about them? I treat them all with the same distain and suspicion. That does not mean that I want to elevate my rejection of homeopathy to a religion any more than I want to elevate Atheism to a religion.
I am atheistic simply because I am not convinced of the claims of the Theists, but that does not involve me in any belief - that is the whole point. Those things you listed rely on belief - a thing for which Faith is required - that is a poor way to live.

[Godfree]

Chaz ,, your more than that ,, ???
me to , I'm a jack of all trades and sports,
but my belief system has a theme ,
if you are to make that theme , "knowledge"
you could see all sorts of things as knowledge ,,
if Atheism is just the answer to the god question for you ,
what about all the other supernatural aspects of religion ,
ie life after death , heaven hell and all that hocus pocus ,
there are many things we could give a small probability of being real ,
and many of these will conflict , some say there is no god , but spirituality ,
is my thing , I'm a medium , I talk to dead people ,
but there's no god ,!!!
so unlike me who makes my Atheism cover all superstitious nonsense ,
I will have to ask you about each subject individually ,
and you could say , theres no god , but Aliens have probed me ,,!!!
or your into Scientology , or homeopathy ,,,???

What about them? I treat them all with the same distain and suspicion. That does not mean that I want to elevate my rejection of homeopathy to a religion any more than I want to elevate Atheism to a religion.
I am atheistic simply because I am not convinced of the claims of the Theists, but that does not involve me in any belief - that is the whole point. Those things you listed rely on belief - a thing for which Faith is required - that is a poor way to live.

You seem to be assuming Atheism is a known quantity ,
like we all agree on what it means or represents ,
Atheism is whatever I decide Atheism is ,, for me ,,
you have to decide what it is for you ,!!
it's like knowledge ,it is an individual experience ,
heres how I see the typical conversation with a theist ,
"so you don't believe in god" ,? then how did we come to be ,?
what happens when we die ,? etc , theists will make many claims ,
so do you need to invent a word for each claim ,ie acreationist , aeternity ,
or aarkist ,,
See we will inevitably get asked all these questions ,
so any Atheist has a redy made set of answers for the theists ,
and that is what I call my belief system ,
what do you call your belief system , if you have one ,,???
if Atheism only covers one concept ,,in your mind , thats not a belief system,
your Atheism isn't a belief system , mine is ,!!!
When we take god out of the picture , we still have to answer all the same
lame questions religion tries to answer ,
we still need a full set of explanations as to how we came to be ,
thats what my belief system does ,
if people want something to believe in , Atheism has to be an improvement on
the ignorance of religion ,,!!!

[attofishpi]

if people want something to believe in , Atheism has to be an improvement on
the ignorance of religion ,,!!!

I'm glad you used Atheism as an improvement on 'religion'...because it certainly is way off track in comparison to Theism.

[Godfree]

if people want something to believe in , Atheism has to be an improvement on
the ignorance of religion ,,!!!

I'm glad you used Atheism as an improvement on 'religion'...because it certainly is way off track in comparison to Theism.

Well yes it is quite different , theism is based on ignorance ,mythology , here-say, fantasy , and fear ,,
Atheism on the other hand is based on facts and logic ,
at least mine is , and that was "an improvement on the ignorance of religion"
get the quote right, religion is ignorance ,
Atheism is rational and sane , religion/theism is not ,
So atto ,, what or where is your"track"
be precise ,, this track , describe it , this track , where does it lead ,
where has it come from , it sounds like , the yellow brick road ,
no doubt you will refuse to answer ,
believing the old adage that,
"it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool , than open ones mouth/keyboard and remove all doubt"

[Hanuman]

I first "crossed-over" to seriously doubting the existence of God, one night when I was on acid, back in college. Since then, I've taken the brain, I was told was given to me by my creator, and done my best to come to some sort of conclusion on the subject. SPOILER ALERT: God hasn't been winning.

Bible (Old Testament): While the bible is often cited as the word of God (written by man), there are a ton of things in there that are not quite God-like. First, God seems to be a mass murderer if you happen to be born into the wrong family (i.e. death of the first born son, Noah's Ark, the Red Sea waters return after parting for Moses, to drown his pursuers, etc.). Second, God seems to have emotions which are ungod-like, but are actually quite human. He's a betting man (Job). He gets angry in several situations, as well as bi-polar, and vengeful (Noah, Adam & Eve, Lot's wife, Moses beating the stone twice, and of course Revelations). He seems to have a self-esteem issue, demanding that people believe in him and no other gods (1st commandment), and demanding obedience to him and his rules.

In addition, I saw this a few years back, but didn't know where it was from. Assuming the source is correct (http://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html) it is from Epicurus, a Greek philosopher,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Some people might question the second point, throwing up the free-will argument. And I'll admit, that stumped me for a while, as well. However, having been around many mentally ill people, I have to question the idea of free will. Why would someone choose physically and mentally self-destructive behavior? I'm not talking about you go out and get bombed the night before a big test or work day. I'm talking about, I think I'll walk outside and blow some strangers head off for the hell of it. Or, I'm so depressed I think it's a good idea to cut myself. Psychology has all but proven that human behavior can be predicted in many situations with a high degree of accuracy. Possibly, free will is present on some level, but, I believe, the vast majority of our actions are determined by genetics, our background, our education, and previous experiences.

Lastly, the concept of heaven and hell. I know this is in the bible, but most religions have added on to it so much it bears separating. In addition, this is what finally made me "cross-over" to being a non-believer, at least in anything associated with Western religion. The question I asked myself is how could a benevolent, all-powerful god put me here on earth, give me this brain and personality that has the power and desire to question the logic of things, give me no credible and tangible evidence of his existence, and put me to a trial of if I choose to not believe in him OR if I do not follow his teachings (which are blurred by the existence of so many religions/cults), then these actions in my lifetime (which may last anywhere from 1 second to 100 or so years) will determine whether I spend eternity in paradise or everlasting torment. No, I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.

Great arguments! Seriously, but...
I submit that you are in fact not arguing against a creator but against the writers of the Bible.

That's a fair point. To take it a step further in clarifying, I would state that I am arguing against "the writers of the Bible", organized religion, and the theory that an invisible man put the universe in motion, and watches over us, taking a personal interest in our lives.

Is there a creator? Possibly. But, if there is, I feel it's far more likely that we are nothing more than a jar of sea monkeys or an ant farm collecting dust on a shelf in the cosmos, to Him. Perhaps occasionally observed, but quickly dismissed and forgotten.

I cannot conceive of a superior being taking a personal interest in our trivial existence in relation to the universe. In addition, if He actually is a superior being, he has a morbid sense of humor and a lot of character flaws.

[chaz wyman]

Chaz ,, your more than that ,, ???
me to , I'm a jack of all trades and sports,
but my belief system has a theme ,
if you are to make that theme , "knowledge"
you could see all sorts of things as knowledge ,,
if Atheism is just the answer to the god question for you ,
what about all the other supernatural aspects of religion ,
ie life after death , heaven hell and all that hocus pocus ,
there are many things we could give a small probability of being real ,
and many of these will conflict , some say there is no god , but spirituality ,
is my thing , I'm a medium , I talk to dead people ,
but there's no god ,!!!
so unlike me who makes my Atheism cover all superstitious nonsense ,
I will have to ask you about each subject individually ,
and you could say , theres no god , but Aliens have probed me ,,!!!
or your into Scientology , or homeopathy ,,,???

What about them? I treat them all with the same distain and suspicion. That does not mean that I want to elevate my rejection of homeopathy to a religion any more than I want to elevate Atheism to a religion.
I am atheistic simply because I am not convinced of the claims of the Theists, but that does not involve me in any belief - that is the whole point. Those things you listed rely on belief - a thing for which Faith is required - that is a poor way to live.

You seem to be assuming Atheism is a known quantity ,

Your version of atheism is parasitic on Theism; it can only survive with Theism; but has no meaning without God.
You rely on God for your creed.

like we all agree on what it means or represents ,

For me that is easy. Atheism is NOT Theism, no more , no less.

Atheism is whatever I decide Atheism is ,, for me ,,

Ha ha ha. NO Atheism is the converse of whatever the God botherers say Theism is.
If there were no belief in God, your creed would be meaningless.


you have to decide what it is for you ,!!
it's like knowledge ,it is an individual experience ,
heres how I see the typical conversation with a theist ,
"so you don't believe in god" ,? then how did we come to be ,?
what happens when we die ,? etc , theists will make many claims ,
so do you need to invent a word for each claim ,ie acreationist , aeternity ,
or aarkist ,,

And all you are doing is supporting Theism by validating it. You make it important enough to set yourself against it. In this way you will always be its dog, barking at the wind.

See we will inevitably get asked all these questions ,
so any Atheist has a redy made set of answers for the theists ,
and that is what I call my belief system ,

And that is why I do not respect your view.
The problem with Theism IS that is a belief system, based on Faith.
The problem with your Atheism is that it is a belief system based on Faith.

You see - I don't give a rat's arse what the belief is. I regard the fact of a belief system is what causes our problems; Islam, Hinduism, Hollow earthers, Homeopathy - its all the same to me. And YOUR version of waht you lie to call Atheism is exactly the same as all that other shit.
Empty words based on nothing, but your belief.



what do you call your belief system , if you have one ,,???

I don't have one.

if Atheism only covers one concept ,,in your mind , thats not a belief system,
your Atheism isn't a belief system , mine is ,!!!
When we take god out of the picture , we still have to answer all the same
lame questions religion tries to answer ,
we still need a full set of explanations as to how we came to be ,
thats what my belief system does ,
if people want something to believe in , Atheism has to be an improvement on
the ignorance of religion ,,!!!

All you are doing is replacing one thing with another. The only difference is that you rely on Theism. I n effect you are fighting against yourself.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I first "crossed-over" to seriously doubting the existence of God, one night when I was on acid, back in college. Since then, I've taken the brain, I was told was given to me by my creator, and done my best to come to some sort of conclusion on the subject. SPOILER ALERT: God hasn't been winning.

Bible (Old Testament): While the bible is often cited as the word of God (written by man), there are a ton of things in there that are not quite God-like. First, God seems to be a mass murderer if you happen to be born into the wrong family (i.e. death of the first born son, Noah's Ark, the Red Sea waters return after parting for Moses, to drown his pursuers, etc.). Second, God seems to have emotions which are ungod-like, but are actually quite human. He's a betting man (Job). He gets angry in several situations, as well as bi-polar, and vengeful (Noah, Adam & Eve, Lot's wife, Moses beating the stone twice, and of course Revelations). He seems to have a self-esteem issue, demanding that people believe in him and no other gods (1st commandment), and demanding obedience to him and his rules.

In addition, I saw this a few years back, but didn't know where it was from. Assuming the source is correct (http://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html) it is from Epicurus, a Greek philosopher,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Some people might question the second point, throwing up the free-will argument. And I'll admit, that stumped me for a while, as well. However, having been around many mentally ill people, I have to question the idea of free will. Why would someone choose physically and mentally self-destructive behavior? I'm not talking about you go out and get bombed the night before a big test or work day. I'm talking about, I think I'll walk outside and blow some strangers head off for the hell of it. Or, I'm so depressed I think it's a good idea to cut myself. Psychology has all but proven that human behavior can be predicted in many situations with a high degree of accuracy. Possibly, free will is present on some level, but, I believe, the vast majority of our actions are determined by genetics, our background, our education, and previous experiences.

Lastly, the concept of heaven and hell. I know this is in the bible, but most religions have added on to it so much it bears separating. In addition, this is what finally made me "cross-over" to being a non-believer, at least in anything associated with Western religion. The question I asked myself is how could a benevolent, all-powerful god put me here on earth, give me this brain and personality that has the power and desire to question the logic of things, give me no credible and tangible evidence of his existence, and put me to a trial of if I choose to not believe in him OR if I do not follow his teachings (which are blurred by the existence of so many religions/cults), then these actions in my lifetime (which may last anywhere from 1 second to 100 or so years) will determine whether I spend eternity in paradise or everlasting torment. No, I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.

Great arguments! Seriously, but...
I submit that you are in fact not arguing against a creator but against the writers of the Bible.

That's a fair point. To take it a step further in clarifying, I would state that I am arguing against "the writers of the Bible", organized religion, and the theory that an invisible man put the universe in motion, and watches over us, taking a personal interest in our lives.

Is there a creator? Possibly. But, if there is, I feel it's far more likely that we are nothing more than a jar of sea monkeys or an ant farm collecting dust on a shelf in the cosmos, to Him. Perhaps occasionally observed, but quickly dismissed and forgotten.

I cannot conceive of a superior being taking a personal interest in our trivial existence in relation to the universe. In addition, if He actually is a superior being, he has a morbid sense of humor and a lot of character flaws.

In this last paragraph: "In addition...," I assume you're saying that this is true as evidenced in the creation of mankind??

If so then I concur!

In addition I see a potential for the "invisible man" as being a force based in, say electro-magnetics as all matter is based upon electo-magnetic force, in the atoms positively charged protons and negatively charged electrons; this mysterious force of electron flow is also responsible for our brain waves, ideomotor movement, and that which is passed between the gap junctions of electrical synapses.

Electricity: the invisible, mysterious force responsible for the existence for all matter in the known universe.

[Hanuman]

Yes, that was my implication.

I am open to the thought that a "creator", if such a being were to exist, might take the form of nature or electricity or some form we cannot conceive of, but I think we are then in the realm of fantasies and daydreams, rather than reasoned hypotheses.

Funny, I read something today, which was along the same lines. No idea who the publisher is, but it was an interesting idea, but no idea what it is based on or if the idea was suggested by someone else, already: http://users.aristotle.net/~diogenes/meaning1.htm (It's got aristotle in the name, but have no idea if the concepts expressed there are related).

[attofishpi]

if people want something to believe in , Atheism has to be an improvement on
the ignorance of religion ,,!!!

I'm glad you used Atheism as an improvement on 'religion'...because it certainly is way off track in comparison to Theism.

Well yes it is quite different , theism is based on ignorance ,mythology , here-say, fantasy , and fear ,,
Atheism on the other hand is based on facts and logic ,
at least mine is , and that was "an improvement on the ignorance of religion"
get the quote right, religion is ignorance ,
Atheism is rational and sane , religion/theism is not ,
So atto ,, what or where is your"track"
be precise ,, this track , describe it , this track , where does it lead ,
where has it come from , it sounds like , the yellow brick road ,
no doubt you will refuse to answer ,
believing the old adage that,
"it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool , than open ones mouth/keyboard and remove all doubt"

My point is, that you can be Theist without being religious...
Many many scientists are Theists, so dont get all fucking cocky about your notion of Atheism being the supreme go getter of Truth.
My laying of the track is a work in progress.

[Godfree]

Chaz ,,,my Atheism is a belief system based on faith ,,???
I totally disagree , faith is not logical ,
I base my belief system on logic ,
and like my Atheism Chaz , my logic , "the most probable"
is my version of what is logic ,
I'm sure you have a different one .
I see your view of the world as rather simplistic ,
your trying to take everything literally ,
but a lot of what we say can no longer have it;s original meaning ,
"who's bad" in this crazy mixed up world of pigeon English ,
the meaning of words , evolves and expands into many uses of what was originally a single concept,
we have logic , and now fuzzy logic ,
one day Godfree logic may also be accepted ,,!!!

[Godfree]

"[/quote]My point is, that you can be Theist without being religious...
Many many scientists are Theists, so dont get all fucking cocky about your notion of Atheism being the supreme go getter of Truth.
My laying of the track is a work in progress.[/quote]

So these theists would be like me and "my " Atheism they will have their beliefs ,
and it will be unique to them , thats reality , we all do have our own version ,
we try and fit existing models fit in , security in numbers etc ,
but really it's never a perfect match and we will disagree with some points ,
religions have more in common , than they do disagree ,
Being a "scientist" is no garauntee you are wise sensible or grasp logic ,
I will be so cocky , cos I can , because I have the smarts to back it up,
unlike a lot in here , I have an agenda , I'm here with a purpose ,
this isn't for entertainment , I treat this as a job and I do it for free ,
social engineering ,if we are to ever to topple religion ,
and replace it as the main philosophy of our culture ,
we are going to have to have a package ready to replace it with ,
asking the punters to be like Chaz and have no belief system ,
will never work , simple because the average person isn't smart enough to grasp make sense of the mountain of spin and bullshit society throws at them,
I have done the thinking and moved on to what do we do after we get rid of religion ,
this is a concept most people can't or won't tackle ,
it's going to happen , it's not if but when ,
so I'm starting the new philosophy that will replace religion ,
like religion it will tackle all questions we can throw at it ,
but unlike religion Chaz ,,my Atheism is based on facts and logic ,
not faith mythology and ignorance

[chaz wyman]

"

My point is, that you can be Theist without being religious...
Many many scientists are Theists, so dont get all fucking cocky about your notion of Atheism being the supreme go getter of Truth.
My laying of the track is a work in progress.[/quote]

So these theists would be like me and "my " Atheism they will have their beliefs ,
and it will be unique to them , thats reality , we all do have our own version ,
we try and fit existing models fit in , security in numbers etc ,
but really it's never a perfect match and we will disagree with some points ,
religions have more in common , than they do disagree ,
Being a "scientist" is no garauntee you are wise sensible or grasp logic ,
I will be so cocky , cos I can , because I have the smarts to back it up,
unlike a lot in here , I have an agenda , I'm here with a purpose ,
this isn't for entertainment , I treat this as a job and I do it for free ,
social engineering ,if we are to ever to topple religion ,
and replace it as the main philosophy of our culture ,
we are going to have to have a package ready to replace it with ,
asking the punters to be like Chaz and have no belief system ,
will never work , simple because the average person isn't smart enough to grasp make sense of the mountain of spin and bullshit society throws at them,
I have done the thinking and moved on to what do we do after we get rid of religion ,
this is a concept most people can't or won't tackle ,
it's going to happen , it's not if but when ,
so I'm starting the new philosophy that will replace religion ,
like religion it will tackle all questions we can throw at it ,
but unlike religion Chaz ,,my Atheism is based on facts and logic ,
not faith mythology and ignorance[/quote]

All religions are based on beliefs presented as facts, they are then build by reason upon those 'facts'.
You are no different because that is what a 'system of belief is'.
You are trapped by dogma.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Yes, that was my implication.

I am open to the thought that a "creator", if such a being were to exist, might take the form of nature or electricity or some form we cannot conceive of, but I think we are then in the realm of fantasies and daydreams, rather than reasoned hypotheses.

Funny, I read something today, which was along the same lines. No idea who the publisher is, but it was an interesting idea, but no idea what it is based on or if the idea was suggested by someone else, already: http://users.aristotle.net/~diogenes/meaning1.htm (It's got aristotle in the name, but have no idea if the concepts expressed there are related).

For the record, I'm not saying that I believe there is a creator of sorts, and that in fact, I'm on the fence, because I realize that truthfully one cannot say with certainty, if there is or isn't some force responsible for all this, that we see as the universe, because the truth of the universe, for us, is still unfolding. The reason I lean towards electromotive force, is because it is the foundation for everything in our universe, as it's responsible for the 'bonding' of the fundamental constituents that make up everything, where the only difference between things, is the number of these constituents, that are bonded by electromotive force. The bonding is responsible for everything. Without the holding together of these small particles, there would be nothing but particles, hence if anything could be seen as the 'hand' of creation, this mysterious force, of opposing potentials, in it's bonding, seems to be headed in the right direction of answering the riddle.

Thanks for the link! I shall check it out, it could provide food for thought.

[Godfree]

I am not trapped Chaz ,,
you are trapped in misconceptions ,
you may perceive my Atheism as a religion , but I disagree ,
you put your label on me , and then proceed to tell me who I am,
the label is incorrect , I'm not who or what you think I am ,
my Atheism is no more a religion , than logic or science are religions ,
I applied to the NZ government for a charitable trust under the theme of Atheism , and was turned down , because Atheism is not a religion ,
one lawyer thought they might get it in as a religion ,
but not seen as a religion , not by the government , western democracy ,
so by what standard are you calling Atheism a religion ,
and is this just my Atheism thats a religion , and yours is not,???
no doubt Chaz yours is perfect , your an Atheist ,,you see your beginner level philosophy , as the right one , it is you who can't move on Chaz ,
it is not enough to answer the god question , after we realize , NO ,
that the world is trapped in madness ,
in order to move on we must then ask the next question ,
I could ask you what that should be , but you havn't moved on yet so you wouldn't know , the question is , "what are we going to do about it"
to realize the world is lost in madness , is not enough ,
we must then come up with a plan to fix it ,,!!!!!
So whats your plan Chaz ,,???
how are you going to fix it ,,???????

[attofishpi]

I am not trapped Chaz ,,
you are trapped in misconceptions ,
you may perceive my Atheism as a religion , but I disagree ,
you put your label on me , and then proceed to tell me who I am,
the label is incorrect , I'm not who or what you think I am ,
my Atheism is no more a religion , than logic or science are religions ,
I applied to the NZ government for a charitable trust under the theme of Atheism , and was turned down , because Atheism is not a religion ,
one lawyer thought they might get it in as a religion ,
but not seen as a religion , not by the government , western democracy ,
so by what standard are you calling Atheism a religion ,
and is this just my Atheism thats a religion , and yours is not,???
no doubt Chaz yours is perfect , your an Atheist ,,you see your beginner level philosophy , as the right one , it is you who can't move on Chaz ,
it is not enough to answer the god question , after we realize , NO ,
that the world is trapped in madness ,
in order to move on we must then ask the next question ,
I could ask you what that should be , but you havn't moved on yet so you wouldn't know , the question is , "what are we going to do about it"
to realize the world is lost in madness , is not enough ,
we must then come up with a plan to fix it ,,!!!!!
So whats your plan Chaz ,,???
how are you going to fix it ,,???????

What a quandary you appear to be in Godfree. I would agree that you have every right to the benefits, the tax breaks that religions have for your belief. Why should believing that there is a supreme being benefit a component of society moreso than one that believes there is not? Keep pushing that point...