Space Exploration: Humanity’s Single Most Important Moral Imperative

[artisticsolution]

I think he'd rather you discussed them there to be honest to give the forum a little life.

I've posted on the space forum but it was a while ago and, as Rick says, it's rather moribund.

Hi John,

That's too bad...it looks pretty interesting. But the thing is...this forum takes up most of my free time as it is...sifting through the posts...besides, I have no understanding of space travel/science, so I would not be able to add any "life." But I would be interested in reading more....just not interested in cheating on this forum with it's 'sister.'

[SpheresOfBalance]

It's not just oxygen, water, food, gravity, capable ship and fuel. It seems that many fail to consider the requirement of a man made magnetosphere as a shield against cosmic radiation and solar wind, which is just as important to ensure a humans survival.

What this is really all about though, is mans need to run from himself. If man can't balance his environment through self regulation, then he doesn't deserve to escape himself. If he finally learns to balance himself he won't necessarily need to escape himself, well anytime soon.

I say that man is a fool for needing to escape himself! And yes I'm challenging him to prove that he doesn't need to.

[Arising_uk]

Do you think everyone should be allowed the standard of living you enjoy?

If so we need those resources that are abundant in the Solar System.

[chaz wyman]

You know I pretty much agree with you but in the interests ...

...
How massive a ship would be required to store enough food and water; and/or sufficient recycling facilities reliable enough and great enough for the (minimum) two year trip. The ship would have to be equipped with artificial gravity. It would have to have massive amounts of fuel to land AND (more importantly) return! The extra burden of carrying the fuel for leaving Mars and for setting course home would make the trip out to Mars prohibitive, quadrupling the requirement - you'd have to take it all with you- it would all have to escape earth gravity and then Mars' for the return trip.. And then what could you bring back? Each kilo would massively increase the energy burden for such a venture. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Or ... ropulsion)


Even if it were possible - which I doubt, This would not even begin to answer the problems of distance, and time.

Let's image that the fuel was no problem - that we had discovered a zero mass means of propulsion. That would still leave the question why go at all? There is nothing there but cold hard desert and carbon dioxide. Mars has nothing we cannot get here.

So where are we going to go that can even match the natural resources? What persons would commit 10 years of there life on a lonely venture to the nearest star? And to find what exactly?

Not the stars but for resources. The asteroid belt supposedly surpasses our natural resources, in minerals anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

Nothing there that we cannot get more cheaply on earth.


One of the billion poor Chinese might give it a go if the rewards were big enough and if their family was recompensed for any deaths.

Nope.
The Chinese will realise, (as they already heave) that it is better to have less people, than more resources that are harder to find.

I read lots of Sci-fi so I've heard all the dreams and the possible solutions. The links you posted are not new to me. But I know them to be fanciful.

[chaz wyman]

You'd get a queue of people willing to give up 10 years to go into space. Hell, someone responded to that German guy's advert to be eaten so what's 10 years in space?

But who would be willing to pay the 3 trillion dollars, to bring back nothing?

[chaz wyman]

I think this a fair point. But the "yet" in your words is pretty unlikely, unless there are some serious developments in the sciences, as we have no practical launch system that can lift the kind of materials we'd need out of the gavity well. It'd begger the worlds resources to do it with the tech we have now.

I might have agreed, except that I think that the discovery of ice in craters near the south pole of the Moon a couple of years back is a massive game-changer. If our Moon has ice in decent quantities, then it can be used to produce water, oxygen, and rocket fuel, all outside Earth's gravity well. As our Moon also has iron, aluminium and other metals in decent quantities, in principle we could manufacture anything we need for space travel and colonization right there. For this reason, I bet that in a couple of hundred years there will be self-sustaining colonies on both the Moon and Mars. It won't do anything much to ease the Earth's population/resources/environmental problems, I'm afraid, but it might provide an insurance policy, as Stephen Hawkings again suggested recently - an outside chance of our species surviving even if we manage to make Earth completely uninhabitable.

By the way, this forum's (now completely moribund) sister forum used to have a lot of discussion of issues just like this. Like the Moon, nobody goes there any more, but also like the Moon, it still exists - here it is:

http://forum.spaceagemag.com

It changes nothing. The gravity is too low to live there for more than a few months before your bones start to rot.
Earth is nicer - so why stay on the moon?

[chaz wyman]

Do you think everyone should be allowed the standard of living you enjoy?

If so we need those resources that are abundant in the Solar System.

Dream on.

They are all here.

You are simply lacking the imagination required to see how far that shit is away from earth and how difficult and expensive it is to escape earth gravity.
Even if there was an asteroid made of solid gold it would not be much help. It might seem financially feasible to collect, but by the time you started to market it its price would drop because you would be competing with local sources, and you will have increased the supply.

[Arising_uk]

[Dream on.

They are all here.

I agree but we'll be making a fair old mess getting to them.

You are simply lacking the imagination required to see how far that shit is away from earth and how difficult and expensive it is to escape earth gravity.

No, I do understand this, I've made the point many times. Its why the Orion project is about the most feasible solution at present but I doubt anyone will be doing it due to the fear of atomic power.

Even if there was an asteroid made of solid gold it would not be much help. It might seem financially feasible to collect, but by the time you started to market it its price would drop because you would be competing with local sources, and you will have increased the supply.

True but iron rather than gold was more what I was thinking about, although the other rare earth minerals would come in handy. I also think that reducing scarce resources would be a good thing and could change the idea of markets and pricing and that usage would increase with the surplus. Bridges across the Atlantic anyone?

[Arising_uk]

... It seems that many fail to consider the requirement of a man made magnetosphere as a shield against cosmic radiation and solar wind, which is just as important to ensure a humans survival.

This is a major issue for any long-term missions.

[Arising_uk]

Even if it were possible - which I doubt, This would not even begin to answer the problems of distance, and time.

How so? As the Orion would be pretty quick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion

Nothing there that we cannot get more cheaply on earth.

But in the same quantities? Sooner or later we'll be running out.

Nope.
The Chinese will realise, (as they already heave) that it is better to have less people, than more resources that are harder to find.

How long do you think they'll be able to enforce this one child policy? Especially since the Indians won't.

According to the projections I've seen if China attempts to give its citizens an equivalent living-standard as we have pretty much all the worlds resources will be going that way.

I read lots of Sci-fi so I've heard all the dreams and the possible solutions. The links you posted are not new to me. But I know them to be fanciful.

As have I but the Orion project was not quite sci-fi, technically it was feasible back then but supposedly due to the atomic testing treaties it was shelved.

Theres also the matter of an extinction event due to asteroid strike, currently we have no way of stopping such a thing and a propulsive spacecraft would be very handy for such an event.

[chaz wyman]

Even if it were possible - which I doubt, This would not even begin to answer the problems of distance, and time.

How so? As the Orion would be pretty quick.

To get where and gather what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion

Nothing there that we cannot get more cheaply on earth.

But in the same quantities? Sooner or later we'll be running out.

Of what and when?

Nope.
The Chinese will realise, (as they already heave) that it is better to have less people, than more resources that are harder to find.

How long do you think they'll be able to enforce this one child policy? Especially since the Indians won't.

The Chinese have managed that for 30 years with no sign of stopping. The Indians will have to follow or have famine. Space Travel is never going to be an option for these masses. Humans life is just too cheap. All it takes is a fuck. To put another body on another planet takes trillions of dollars.


According to the projections I've seen if China attempts to give its citizens an equivalent living-standard as we have pretty much all the worlds resources will be going that way.

I read lots of Sci-fi so I've heard all the dreams and the possible solutions. The links you posted are not new to me. But I know them to be fanciful.

As have I but the Orion project was not quite sci-fi, technically it was feasible back then but supposedly due to the atomic testing treaties it was shelved.

Theres also the matter of an extinction event due to asteroid strike, currently we have no way of stopping such a thing and a propulsive spacecraft would be very handy for such an event.

Space Travel is never going to be anything but that - the means to escape.
But I have to say that by the time we had technology that good, an asteroid is going to be no problem.
We are basically here to stay and would do well not to waste resources on pipe dreams.

[Arising_uk]

To get where and gather what?

The asteroid belts, the moon and the gas giants. The rare earth minerals would be a start. Hellium-3 would also be handy they say.

Of what and when?

Rare earth minerals. One guess appears to be about 50-60 years given our rate of technological production.

The Chinese have managed that for 30 years with no sign of stopping. The Indians will have to follow or have famine. Space Travel is never going to be an option for these masses. Humans life is just too cheap. All it takes is a fuck. To put another body on another planet takes trillions of dollars.

They have and their population growth is still on an upward curve. I'm not talking about colonization, just resource gathering.

Space Travel is never going to be anything but that - the means to escape.
But I have to say that by the time we had technology that good, an asteroid is going to be no problem.
We are basically here to stay and would do well not to waste resources on pipe dreams.

We've had the tech since the late 50's early 60's, its politics that stopped us using it and kept us with Von Brauns rockets.

I agree we're not going anywhere, as such we need resources as sooner or later they will run out, if we're going to stay with mechanical technology that is. Although I agree that biology may provide a different route.

An extinction event asteroid will put an end to all the pipe dreams and given we think them a fairly common event geologically, I think if we are thinking of the future then we ought to be thinking about how to intercept one and that needs a space-propulsion system that works.

[John]

You'd get a queue of people willing to give up 10 years to go into space. Hell, someone responded to that German guy's advert to be eaten so what's 10 years in space?

But who would be willing to pay the 3 trillion dollars, to bring back nothing?

Well you might have a point on who would be willing to pick up the tab but you'd have no shortage of volunteers willing to go.

[chaz wyman]

To get where and gather what?

The asteroid belts, the moon and the gas giants. The rare earth minerals would be a start. Hellium-3 would also be handy they say.

I can't image any sue for He3 that would justify a trip to Jupiter, sorry. maybe you could tell us why we need it?

Of what and when?

Rare earth minerals. One guess appears to be about 50-60 years given our rate of technological production.

You are being a bit vague. "Rare Earth Minerals" is meaningless.

The Chinese have managed that for 30 years with no sign of stopping. The Indians will have to follow or have famine. Space Travel is never going to be an option for these masses. Humans life is just too cheap. All it takes is a fuck. To put another body on another planet takes trillions of dollars.

They have and their population growth is still on an upward curve. I'm not talking about colonization, just resource gathering.

Space Travel is never going to be anything but that - the means to escape.
But I have to say that by the time we had technology that good, an asteroid is going to be no problem.
We are basically here to stay and would do well not to waste resources on pipe dreams.

We've had the tech since the late 50's early 60's, its politics that stopped us using it and kept us with Von Brauns rockets.

Rubbish. There is no where known anywhere in the Universe that can support life.


I agree we're not going anywhere, as such we need resources as sooner or later they will run out, if we're going to stay with mechanical technology that is. Although I agree that biology may provide a different route.

We have not used-up one gram of rare earth elements. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. You keep going on about these, but you have not said what we want them for nor shown that it would not be easier to get them right here.


An extinction event asteroid will put an end to all the pipe dreams and given we think them a fairly common event geologically, I think if we are thinking of the future then we ought to be thinking about how to intercept one and that needs a space-propulsion system that works.

[chaz wyman]

You'd get a queue of people willing to give up 10 years to go into space. Hell, someone responded to that German guy's advert to be eaten so what's 10 years in space?

But who would be willing to pay the 3 trillion dollars, to bring back nothing?

Well you might have a point on who would be willing to pick up the tab but you'd have no shortage of volunteers willing to go.

True.
What I meant was not actually about getting the fools to Queue up for the mission.