Science , Fiction or Fact

[chaz wyman]

LIVE is an anagram of EVIL - Dog is an anagram of God - SPOOOOOOKKKKKKYYYYY!!

Yeah, i spose it is.... The English language is riddled with it...it goes way beyond natural etymology.

Here's four more:
The sun of God - The son of God - Life giving?
Anarchy - An Arch Y <--- deduce any logic
Rape - r_ape - our ape (oh you are ape)
Chess Jurist <-- nice anagram for you to finish with

Jim Morrison - Mr Mojo Risin

Kewl.

Bet you can't get a good one for Jimi hendrix.

[Godfree]

I first "crossed-over" to seriously doubting the existence of God, one night when I was on acid, back in college. Since then, I've taken the brain, I was told was given to me by my creator, and done my best to come to some sort of conclusion on the subject. SPOILER ALERT: God hasn't been winning.

Bible (Old Testament): While the bible is often cited as the word of God (written by man), there are a ton of things in there that are not quite God-like. First, God seems to be a mass murderer if you happen to be born into the wrong family (i.e. death of the first born son, Noah's Ark, the Red Sea waters return after parting for Moses, to drown his pursuers, etc.). Second, God seems to have emotions which are ungod-like, but are actually quite human. He's a betting man (Job). He gets angry in several situations, as well as bi-polar, and vengeful (Noah, Adam & Eve, Lot's wife, Moses beating the stone twice, and of course Revelations). He seems to have a self-esteem issue, demanding that people believe in him and no other gods (1st commandment), and demanding obedience to him and his rules.

In addition, I saw this a few years back, but didn't know where it was from. Assuming the source is correct (http://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html) it is from Epicurus, a Greek philosopher,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Some people might question the second point, throwing up the free-will argument. And I'll admit, that stumped me for a while, as well. However, having been around many mentally ill people, I have to question the idea of free will. Why would someone choose physically and mentally self-destructive behavior? I'm not talking about you go out and get bombed the night before a big test or work day. I'm talking about, I think I'll walk outside and blow some strangers head off for the hell of it. Or, I'm so depressed I think it's a good idea to cut myself. Psychology has all but proven that human behavior can be predicted in many situations with a high degree of accuracy. Possibly, free will is present on some level, but, I believe, the vast majority of our actions are determined by genetics, our background, our education, and previous experiences.

Lastly, the concept of heaven and hell. I know this is in the bible, but most religions have added on to it so much it bears separating. In addition, this is what finally made me "cross-over" to being a non-believer, at least in anything associated with Western religion. The question I asked myself is how could a benevolent, all-powerful god put me here on earth, give me this brain and personality that has the power and desire to question the logic of things, give me no credible and tangible evidence of his existence, and put me to a trial of if I choose to not believe in him OR if I do not follow his teachings (which are blurred by the existence of so many religions/cults), then these actions in my lifetime (which may last anywhere from 1 second to 100 or so years) will determine whether I spend eternity in paradise or everlasting torment. No, I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.

Great arguments! Seriously, but...
I submit that you are in fact not arguing against a creator but against the writers of the Bible.

Well done Hanuman ,, a great post and worth repeating ,
I think the argument is against illogical thinking ,
if we then apply that same logic to does a creator exist ,
it's only those that can't or won't grasp logic that ,
could conclude from what we know that there is a god .
I see the possibility that god exists as about as real as ,
the Loch Ness monster , we can prove it is impossible ,
just as we can prove god impossible , but people don't want to hear it ,
so they say lame things like ," you can't say that"
because they can't grasp reality , they assume you also can't ,
we tend to treat people as tho they can think like we do ,
religion keeps assuming hear-say is proof ,
Atheism keeps saying show me the proof ,
I am 100% confident that in the future ,
religion will be seen as the madness that it is ,
unfortunately for me , I don't think this will happen in my lifetime ,
but I shall not let that affect my commitment ,
what I think will eventually happen, is it will come under mental health ,
and like smoking ,drugs etc , now seen as a health issue,
religion will eventually be seen as a health issue ,
religion is bad for your mental health,,,!!!!!!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

I first "crossed-over" to seriously doubting the existence of God, one night when I was on acid, back in college. Since then, I've taken the brain, I was told was given to me by my creator, and done my best to come to some sort of conclusion on the subject. SPOILER ALERT: God hasn't been winning.

Bible (Old Testament): While the bible is often cited as the word of God (written by man), there are a ton of things in there that are not quite God-like. First, God seems to be a mass murderer if you happen to be born into the wrong family (i.e. death of the first born son, Noah's Ark, the Red Sea waters return after parting for Moses, to drown his pursuers, etc.). Second, God seems to have emotions which are ungod-like, but are actually quite human. He's a betting man (Job). He gets angry in several situations, as well as bi-polar, and vengeful (Noah, Adam & Eve, Lot's wife, Moses beating the stone twice, and of course Revelations). He seems to have a self-esteem issue, demanding that people believe in him and no other gods (1st commandment), and demanding obedience to him and his rules.

In addition, I saw this a few years back, but didn't know where it was from. Assuming the source is correct (http://www.gotquestions.org/theodicy.html) it is from Epicurus, a Greek philosopher,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Some people might question the second point, throwing up the free-will argument. And I'll admit, that stumped me for a while, as well. However, having been around many mentally ill people, I have to question the idea of free will. Why would someone choose physically and mentally self-destructive behavior? I'm not talking about you go out and get bombed the night before a big test or work day. I'm talking about, I think I'll walk outside and blow some strangers head off for the hell of it. Or, I'm so depressed I think it's a good idea to cut myself. Psychology has all but proven that human behavior can be predicted in many situations with a high degree of accuracy. Possibly, free will is present on some level, but, I believe, the vast majority of our actions are determined by genetics, our background, our education, and previous experiences.

Lastly, the concept of heaven and hell. I know this is in the bible, but most religions have added on to it so much it bears separating. In addition, this is what finally made me "cross-over" to being a non-believer, at least in anything associated with Western religion. The question I asked myself is how could a benevolent, all-powerful god put me here on earth, give me this brain and personality that has the power and desire to question the logic of things, give me no credible and tangible evidence of his existence, and put me to a trial of if I choose to not believe in him OR if I do not follow his teachings (which are blurred by the existence of so many religions/cults), then these actions in my lifetime (which may last anywhere from 1 second to 100 or so years) will determine whether I spend eternity in paradise or everlasting torment. No, I'm sorry, I'm not buying that.

Great arguments! Seriously, but...
I submit that you are in fact not arguing against a creator but against the writers of the Bible.

Well done Hanuman ,, a great post and worth repeating ,
I think the argument is against illogical thinking ,
if we then apply that same logic to does a creator exist ,
it's only those that can't or won't grasp logic that ,
could conclude from what we know that there is a god .
I see the possibility that god exists as about as real as ,
the Loch Ness monster , we can prove it is impossible ,
just as we can prove god impossible , but people don't want to hear it ,
so they say lame things like ," you can't say that"
because they can't grasp reality , they assume you also can't ,
we tend to treat people as tho they can think like we do ,
religion keeps assuming hear-say is proof ,
Atheism keeps saying show me the proof ,
I am 100% confident that in the future ,
religion will be seen as the madness that it is ,
unfortunately for me , I don't think this will happen in my lifetime ,
but I shall not let that affect my commitment ,
what I think will eventually happen, is it will come under mental health ,
and like smoking ,drugs etc , now seen as a health issue,
religion will eventually be seen as a health issue ,
religion is bad for your mental health,,,!!!!!!!!

It would seem, that your stance, has always said more about your inabilities, than it does your abilities.

[Godfree]

Sob , a strange response to my posts ,
when they mostly talk about religions inability to produce proof ,
that I am an Atheist and therefore do base my beliefs on proof ,
and the thread title , is about sciences ability to state facts ,
where does my abilities come into the thread ,
was this a particular statement , quote the sentence ,,??
I'm curious what connection there is between that post , and the thread ,
I can't think of one , are you crossing threads here ,,???

[SpheresOfBalance]

Sob , a strange response to my posts ,
when they mostly talk about religions inability to produce proof ,
that I am an Atheist and therefore do base my beliefs on proof ,
and the thread title , is about sciences ability to state facts ,
where does my abilities come into the thread ,
was this a particular statement , quote the sentence ,,??
I'm curious what connection there is between that post , and the thread ,
I can't think of one , are you crossing threads here ,,???

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.

[chaz wyman]

Sob , a strange response to my posts ,
when they mostly talk about religions inability to produce proof ,
that I am an Atheist and therefore do base my beliefs on proof ,
and the thread title , is about sciences ability to state facts ,
where does my abilities come into the thread ,
was this a particular statement , quote the sentence ,,??
I'm curious what connection there is between that post , and the thread ,
I can't think of one , are you crossing threads here ,,???

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.

The statement "either way" betrays the lie that there is a symmetry between Theism and Atheism where none exists.
A proposition can either be established or not. Theism cannot be established.
Atheism has no proposition, it is merely the recognition that the proposition cannot be established.
Thus there is only one way to look at this question; if God cannot be established, then Atheism is a default position.
It is in need of no ascertainment; it is not 'speculative'.

[Godfree]

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.[/color][/quote]

The statement "either way" betrays the lie that there is a symmetry between Theism and Atheism where none exists.
A proposition can either be established or not. Theism cannot be established.
Atheism has no proposition, it is merely the recognition that the proposition cannot be established.
Thus there is only one way to look at this question; if God cannot be established, then Atheism is a default position.
It is in need of no ascertainment; it is not 'speculative'.[/quote]

I agree Chaz ,
I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,
one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,
be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!!

[chaz wyman]

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.[/color]

The statement "either way" betrays the lie that there is a symmetry between Theism and Atheism where none exists.
A proposition can either be established or not. Theism cannot be established.
Atheism has no proposition, it is merely the recognition that the proposition cannot be established.
Thus there is only one way to look at this question; if God cannot be established, then Atheism is a default position.
It is in need of no ascertainment; it is not 'speculative'.[/quote]

I agree Chaz ,

Oh um. Sadly, as I have explained to you many times before - you are the living embodiment of the sort of Atheism he is talking about. WHilst you continue to insist that atheism is a system of belief, then he is justified to make that comment.
MY form of atheism which is contentless is the default position that is not speculative.
I've been trying to get you to see this again and again.
Am I any closer yet?

I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,

In which case you ought to stop peddling Atheism as a system of belief.

one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,

And this is exactly the point where you make your mistake.
Ask me why!

be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!![/quote]

[SpheresOfBalance]

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.[/color]

The statement "either way" betrays the lie that there is a symmetry between Theism and Atheism where none exists.
A proposition can either be established or not. Theism cannot be established.
Atheism has no proposition, it is merely the recognition that the proposition cannot be established.
Thus there is only one way to look at this question; if God cannot be established, then Atheism is a default position.
It is in need of no ascertainment; it is not 'speculative'.[/quote]

I agree Chaz ,
I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,
one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,
be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!![/quote]
See your problem, along with most here, especially Chaz, is the canned preconceived ideas that you parrot from books/net that you've 'read' that were 'written' by someone else.

The fact of death is that all of the elements that you were made of, returns to the source; pure and simply a fact!

You can't possibly know, if there is or isn't a creator, because of relativity, pure and simple!

My stance has absolutely nothing to do with faith and everything to do with possibility. Where your vision is half duplex, mine if full duplex.

All your argument is, is simply that: "based upon what I believe I know, there can be no creator." --Born of arrogance (selfishness)--

Mine is: "based upon what I don't know, there could be a creator just as well as not." --Born of humility (selflessness)--

And don't go barking faith. Faith is believing in something particular despite not having any proof. I don't believe in jack shit, other than believing that 'anything' is possible. For me the jury is still out and shall remain so until mankind is capable of circumnavigating the universe.

faith /feɪθ/ feyth] noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. --Random House--

1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one’s faith in politicians. --Oxford--

[chaz wyman]

PS. You can tell SoB from me that he is not really qualified to comment on what I think, if he can only read part of what I say.

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.[/color]

The statement "either way" betrays the lie that there is a symmetry between Theism and Atheism where none exists.
A proposition can either be established or not. Theism cannot be established.
Atheism has no proposition, it is merely the recognition that the proposition cannot be established.
Thus there is only one way to look at this question; if God cannot be established, then Atheism is a default position.
It is in need of no ascertainment; it is not 'speculative'.[/quote]

I agree Chaz ,

Oh um. Sadly, as I have explained to you many times before - you are the living embodiment of the sort of Atheism he is talking about. WHilst you continue to insist that atheism is a system of belief, then he is justified to make that comment.
MY form of atheism which is contentless is the default position that is not speculative.
I've been trying to get you to see this again and again.
Am I any closer yet?

I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,

In which case you ought to stop peddling Atheism as a system of belief.

one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,

And this is exactly the point where you make your mistake.
Ask me why!

be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!![/quote]

[Godfree]

I agree Chaz ,

Oh um. Sadly, as I have explained to you many times before - you are the living embodiment of the sort of Atheism he is talking about. WHilst you continue to insist that atheism is a system of belief, then he is justified to make that comment.
MY form of atheism which is contentless is the default position that is not speculative.
I've been trying to get you to see this again and again.
Am I any closer yet?

I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,

In which case you ought to stop peddling Atheism as a system of belief.

one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,

And this is exactly the point where you make your mistake.
Ask me why!

be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!![/quote][/quote]

Surely your missing the obvious Chaz ,
if your Atheism is the "default position" and isn't a belief system,
like it's your response to the question ,does god exist ,??and thats it ,
then why not continue with the counter argument ,
does god exist ,no , were we created , no , is there life after death , no ,
are you suggesting that you don't have a belief system Chaz ,,???
surely you do , and if it's not based on Atheism,?
then is it a schizo mixed up collection of religion and science ,???
I would suggest Chaz that you have a belief system , it's based on Atheism ,
and you just like being difficult,,,!!!

[Godfree]

See your problem, along with most here, especially Chaz, is the canned preconceived ideas that you parrot from books/net that you've 'read' that were 'written' by someone else.

The fact of death is that all of the elements that you were made of, returns to the source; pure and simply a fact!

You can't possibly know, if there is or isn't a creator, because of relativity, pure and simple!

despite relativity , we have slowly built up what we call the "known universe"
there is no creator in the known universe ,
the known universe is very large and includes almost everything ,
I feel no compulsion to go outside that and imagine my reality ,
the known universe is continuosly being up-graded ,
but last time I checked , a creator wasn't in the mix ,
I don't agree with everything that is in the mix ,
but there is no creator in the real world/known universe ,,,!!!

[chaz wyman]

Their is no definitive proof either way, that can be ascertained prior to the end. All else is speculation based upon what one thinks one knows.[/color]

The statement "either way" betrays the lie that there is a symmetry between Theism and Atheism where none exists.
A proposition can either be established or not. Theism cannot be established.
Atheism has no proposition, it is merely the recognition that the proposition cannot be established.
Thus there is only one way to look at this question; if God cannot be established, then Atheism is a default position.
It is in need of no ascertainment; it is not 'speculative'.

I agree Chaz ,
I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,
one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,
be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!![/quote]
See your problem, along with most here, especially Chaz, is the canned preconceived ideas that you parrot from books/net that you've 'read' that were 'written' by someone else.

The fact of death is that all of the elements that you were made of, returns to the source; pure and simply a fact!

You can't possibly know, if there is or isn't a creator, because of relativity, pure and simple!

My stance has absolutely nothing to do with faith and everything to do with possibility. Where your vision is half duplex, mine if full duplex.

All your argument is, is simply that: "based upon what I believe I know, there can be no creator." --Born of arrogance (selfishness)--

Mine is: "based upon what I don't know, there could be a creator just as well as not." --Born of humility (selflessness)--

And don't go barking faith. Faith is believing in something particular despite not having any proof. I don't believe in jack shit, other than believing that 'anything' is possible. For me the jury is still out and shall remain so until mankind is capable of circumnavigating the universe.

faith /feɪθ/ feyth] noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. --Random House--

1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one’s faith in politicians. --Oxford-- [/quote]

To SoB
Yes that is Godfree's problem - ha cannot know a thing not to be true. But there is a more pressing problem which makes this no problem at all; YOU cannot know there is a god.
And that is an end to it.
So this problem of Godfree's is a problem for him and not a problem for Atheism.

You view:""based upon what I don't know, there could be a creator just as well as not." , makes you an Atheist too. Of the type of atheist you are, you fit in the agnostic category.
Unless you want to keep your post-life salvation options open - in which case you can pretend you believe in God.

[chaz wyman]

I agree Chaz ,

Oh um. Sadly, as I have explained to you many times before - you are the living embodiment of the sort of Atheism he is talking about. WHilst you continue to insist that atheism is a system of belief, then he is justified to make that comment.
MY form of atheism which is contentless is the default position that is not speculative.
I've been trying to get you to see this again and again.
Am I any closer yet?

I noticed in sobs previous post the assumption that it's like a 50/50 call
like you don't know the difference either way ,
well that may be true , YOU may not know the difference ,
but I do , and Chaz does ,
there is a huge difference between the two ,
one requires a leap of faith , and one doesn't ,

In which case you ought to stop peddling Atheism as a system of belief.

one has got facts to back it up , and one doesn't ,

And this is exactly the point where you make your mistake.
Ask me why!

be honest sob , the decision is easy to make ,
if you take an honest look at the facts , there is only one conclusion ,
I really think it's as simple as ,,
I want to live forever , therefore I will cling to any belief that allows this belief,
I believe the individual can't face death , thinks there's an alternative ,
and refuses to give up such childish things ,,,!!!

[/quote]

Surely your missing the obvious Chaz ,
if your Atheism is the "default position" and isn't a belief system,
like it's your response to the question ,does god exist ,??and thats it ,
then why not continue with the counter argument ,

That would validate a particular view of God. What God, which God?

does god exist ,no , were we created , no , is there life after death , no ,

You are just spouting dogma. This is not an argument.

are you suggesting that you don't have a belief system Chaz ,,???

No, I am telling you that my Atheism is NOT a believe system. Atheism does not exhaust me, I am more than that.
I do not follow any beliefs. I only think things are true is they are knowledge, and knowledge is not based on faith.
Whilst it might be possible to know a thing to be true - you can never Know a thing to be Not True. You can take aspects of the claim about god and show them to be ridiculous, but when god is invisible and mysterious, then you can no more disprove it than you can the fact that there might be a teapot woth a yellow floral pattern orbiting Alpha Centauri.
You cannot make the disbelief of this teapot the basis of a system of belief - that would be ridiculous. And you cannot make a belief system out of Atheism as that would be more ridiculous and validate the thing you hope to dismiss.

surely you do , and if it's not based on Atheism,?

Atheism is not a thing that can be the basis of anything. It is a negation of another proposed belief. How many times need I say this.
Atheism has no content.


then is it a schizo mixed up collection of religion and science ,???

Yes, that is what you have. You have your Faith in a series of beleifs that you call atheism and you base your science on that religion.


I would suggest Chaz that you have a belief system , it's based on Atheism ,
and you just like being difficult,,,!!!

You are trapped. You have not given up your childish religion, but have simply replaced it with another one that you call Atheism.
I do not share your childish Naivete.
If you find that 'difficult' then that is good - maybe you are ready to free yourself of this restriction?


[/quote]

[Godfree]

Chaz ,, your more than that ,, ???
me to , I'm a jack of all trades and sports,
but my belief system has a theme ,
if you are to make that theme , "knowledge"
you could see all sorts of things as knowledge ,,
if Atheism is just the answer to the god question for you ,
what about all the other supernatural aspects of religion ,
ie life after death , heaven hell and all that hocus pocus ,
there are many things we could give a small probability of being real ,
and many of these will conflict , some say there is no god , but spirituality ,
is my thing , I'm a medium , I talk to dead people ,
but there's no god ,!!!
so unlike me who makes my Atheism cover all superstitious nonsense ,
I will have to ask you about each subject individually ,
and you could say , theres no god , but Aliens have probed me ,,!!!
or your into Scientology , or homeopathy ,,,???