If God Exists, Is It Our God?

[chaz wyman]

Chaz, you said it well:

But even so I don't see death as as some kind of salvation even if my last gasp is horrific. Life is good, I love it. Death can only ever be a disappointment.

I agree with your viewpoint! Life can be good, and my enjoyment of it should not depend on whether I cease to exist with the grave or not.

My point is that death need not be feared. I think fearing death can take away from the good life. Those who are told by religious zealots that they are damned and start believing it may have more trouble enjoying life than those who think biological death is the end.

Indeed, it is only the manner of my death which I might 'fear', as such. the idea of being dead - is a contradiction in itself. You cannot BE dead, death is not being, and like David Hume said, you should no more fear that state as you would when you contemplate the eternity of time before you were born.
Yet I would live as long as i can, and the fact of death does render all human action meaningless.
When I had cancer 3 years back, I had plenty of time to contemplate my demise - I know it is going to be fucking horrible, if (more likely when) my cancer returns; the treatment was bad enough and the dying is not going to be pleasant.
But those who accept death without any qualms at all are not really living to enjoy life.

[Mike Strand]

I defer to your view of death, and sorry to hear about your struggle with cancer. Accepting approaching death without qualms (not raging "against the dying of the light") isn't healthy, nor is it life-affirming, I think, except maybe in the special case that one is so close to it or it's so painful that it is seen as a blessing.

[Godfree]

Vultures , circle to gain altitude ,
it's like taking the lift to the top floor ,
and then they can use that height to glide great distances
Death , a challenge Mike ,
accept that death is final , comes to terms with that being the end ,
and then explain why we need god again ,
surely god is just the enabler that makes this dream possible ,
if you can give up the dream , you no longer need god ,,!!

[Mike Strand]

Poetic and thought-provoking, Godfree.

I think it may be even harder for the one(s) left behind -- for those who witness the death of a loved one -- than for the one dying. I think some people dread seeing a loved one die more than their own demise. Maybe that is the main force behind the hope for eternal life with a loving god -- so that one can be with dear departed ones again. Hope is a powerful sustainer of the good life, it appears to me, whether there is a basis in fact for that hope or not.

[chaz wyman]

I defer to your view of death, and sorry to hear about your struggle with cancer. Accepting approaching death without qualms (not raging "against the dying of the light") isn't healthy, nor is it life-affirming, I think, except maybe in the special case that one is so close to it or it's so painful that it is seen as a blessing.

I'm in remission. There are no guarantees with cancer treatment. When you are in treatment you hope for a light at the end of the tunnel. When its over and they tell you there is not further evidence of cancer what you get is relief but you also get a longer tunnel, if you know what I mean.
I had quite a severe treatment, and that has screwed up my neck and throat. Although its been 3 years now, I still have pain and discomfort which can seem like the cancer is back. Despite that I do tend to get more out of life.

[Mike Strand]

Chaz:
I'm moved and grateful that you've told me (and us) about your struggle with cancer. My mother was diagnosed with stage 3 lymphoma about four years ago and elected against chemotherapy (she just turned 89 this year). She is happy and sets a good example for the whole family of how to enjoy life. So far, she appears to be in remission. It's possible she was mis-diagnosed when they took the large lump out of her intestine. But she has no illusions about what may lie ahead.

Nevertheless, her hopes and dreams and love of life sustain her, and she doesn't try to preach or force her optimistic beliefs upon anyone else.

[chaz wyman]

Chaz:
I'm moved and grateful that you've told me (and us) about your struggle with cancer. My mother was diagnosed with stage 3 lymphoma about four years ago and elected against chemotherapy (she just turned 89 this year). She is happy and sets a good example for the whole family of how to enjoy life. So far, she appears to be in remission. It's possible she was mis-diagnosed when they took the large lump out of her intestine. But she has no illusions about what may lie ahead.

Nevertheless, her hopes and dreams and love of life sustain her, and she doesn't try to preach or force her optimistic beliefs upon anyone else.

I met some pretty brave folks whilst I was sitting around having that evil stuff pumped through my body. I learned that beig old can be its own defence against cancer. Your bodily systems are so slow to repair that the cancer can be weak. This seems quite paradoxical, ,but no when you realise that cancer is really yourself attacking yourself.
Good luck to her and send her my best wishes

[Mike Strand]

Chaz wrote:

I met some pretty brave folks whilst I was sitting around having that evil stuff pumped through my body. I learned that beig old can be its own defence against cancer. Your bodily systems are so slow to repair that the cancer can be weak. This seems quite paradoxical, ,but no when you realise that cancer is really yourself attacking yourself.
Good luck to her and send her my best wishes

Interesting information -- I hadn't known this about the possible advantage of being old while having cancer. I will send Mom your best wishes, and best wishes to you as well!

[Godfree]

A thought well worth quoting, from Typist:

Come to terms with the limits of knowing. If you can give up the dream that you know something nobody on earth knows, you no longer need atheism!

And if you can admit that hopes and dreams of others can be comforting to them, and if they don't force them upon you, you no longer have to resent either atheism or theism.

Theism comes in some pretty extreme forms ,
Wacko Texas , etc , cults , jihadists ,they will all claim to be ,
doing the lords work ,if you were a young girl in north Africa ,
your family would find comfort in the knowledge ,
that her clit will be cut out , to make her more desireable .
would you try and stop them , ???
would you consider it their right to practice their religion any way they want ,?
do you see some religious practices as insane ,
and that we as a species should step up to the plate ,
and demand ,sanity , reality ,honesty ,
religion is none of those ,,!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

As far as I'm concerned, I hate mans god, as he was made in mans image! All that any Bible, Koran or otherwise is good for is finding the love for your fellow man, if you can't find that within it's pages, it's useless, except as kindling.

But I believe that there could be a creator, just as well as not. But as to 'it' taking special interest in any particular thing that 'it's' created, well that's for children, right? If you want to see the creator, look at my avatar, that could be said to be the hand of the creator, so to speak.

You know I love when I'm sleeping as I do not have to face the stupidity of mankind's constant waring, competing, destroying, dominating, with pretty or deadly elements. These are his micro-dramas that are all merely a means to run from his inevitable fate, as if they can actually 'help??' Mankind is an extremely pathetic animal.

I do not fear 'death' as it's merely sleeping an endless sleep, and you'll never be the wiser. But I do fear the act of dying because I'll be aware that in a few minutes I shall cease to be capable of calling the shots as to my life; I'll have no say in the matter.

Could this be why man is so pathetic in my eyes; that he creates all this fuss merely because he wants to have a say in the final matter?

Life is an extremely beautiful gift of possibilities, I look at all that is the universe and marvel at it's miraculousness. I absolutely love watching hummingbird wings, woodpecker beaks and fuzzy bees a buzzing. Yes all life is utterly beautiful while it lasts, be absorbed by it, let it envelope you, as in it's beauty and warmth you shall find your salvation!

[Godfree]

SOB , "but I believe there could be a creator"
well don't stop there , fill in the missing pieces for us ,
what form does this creator take , how did it come to be ,,?????
can it manipulate things in the real world ,???
what was it's role in reality as we know it today , what was it's contribution,
how did it do it , where does it get it's power from ,???
fuel , anything that does things uses fuel ,
so why would a god/creator be any different ,???
all powerful , would require all fuel ,lots of energy being transfered ,
but let me guess ,, your prepared to throw science out the window,
in order for this creator model to be accepted ,????

[SpheresOfBalance]

SOB , "but I believe there could be a creator"
well don't stop there , fill in the missing pieces for us ,
what form does this creator take , how did it come to be ,,?????
can it manipulate things in the real world ,???
what was it's role in reality as we know it today , what was it's contribution,
how did it do it , where does it get it's power from ,???
fuel , anything that does things uses fuel ,
so why would a god/creator be any different ,???
all powerful , would require all fuel ,lots of energy being transfered ,
but let me guess ,, your prepared to throw science out the window,
in order for this creator model to be accepted ,????

As with most, you place your own thoughts into my words, as your condescending tone exudes your presumption, as if absolutely true. I said, "...there could be a creator, just as well as not." pay attention!

[Godfree]

SOB , "but I believe there could be a creator"
well don't stop there , fill in the missing pieces for us ,
what form does this creator take , how did it come to be ,,?????
can it manipulate things in the real world ,???
what was it's role in reality as we know it today , what was it's contribution,
how did it do it , where does it get it's power from ,???
fuel , anything that does things uses fuel ,
so why would a god/creator be any different ,???
all powerful , would require all fuel ,lots of energy being transfered ,
but let me guess ,, your prepared to throw science out the window,
in order for this creator model to be accepted ,????

As with most, you place your own thoughts into my words, as your condescending tone exudes your presumption, as if absolutely true. I said, "...there could be a creator, just as well as not." pay attention!

So there could be a creator , but you have no idea what form it comes in ,
don't want to put your head on the block for me to chop off ,??
you say there could be a creator ,
HOW , if you think it's possible ,, how is it possible ,
there could be a creator ,
No there couldn't , that is a real response ,
for you to suggest there could be such a thing ,usually means you want such a thing to be true , but you just don't have the facts or figures to support the silly notion , so you slide out and fudge around it ,
could , ,,no ,, could not ,,,if you are going to make claims ,
then you should be prepared to back them up ,
so in my humble/arrogant opinion , no there could not be a creator ,Why , because it's impossible ,,
and until you or anybody else can prove otherwise ,
reality is , no there could not have been a creator ,,!!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Godfree,

You know I really love to read your presumptions, they tend to make me laugh really hard. I can feel the endorphins surging.

Thanks!

[chaz wyman]

As far as I'm concerned, I hate mans god, as he was made in mans image! All that any Bible, Koran or otherwise is good for is finding the love for your fellow man, if you can't find that within it's pages, it's useless, except as kindling.

As if there could ever be anything other than a God of man's conception!