If God Exists, Is It Our God?

[Godfree]

In other words you are going to act like a priest for The Church of Atheism.
You are going to peddle a dogma and impose your world view that God is wrong, God does not exist, and God is a lie.
Have I got that right so far?

I can think of no better way to force Xianity underground; make it attractive and popular.
That is Exactly how it spread throughout the Empire of Rome, where there was religious freedom and tolerance except that it was required to include the Secular Authority in divine observance. It was the refusal by Xians to worship the emperor that made Xianity proscribed and illegal. It was a massive fillip to its followers who could appear as martyrs and rebels; result - it spread like wildfire through the cities of the empire and eventually was the only religion that was allowed.
that may have happened then ,,
but it wouldn't now , because we actually do know reality,
it wouldn't be one pack of lies for another , one ruthless dictator for another ,
it would be reality vrs fantasy truth vrs bullshit ,
we can now for the first time in history , prove religion is a load of rubbish ,
religious or not most people would agree they like to think they live in the real world ,
some would want to stay in their fantasy , even after proving it impossible ,
but most would continue to seek real knowledge wherever that took them .
there will always be somebody looking after the drunks on the streets,
the mentally ill , cripples , drug addicts ,
if we leave it up to religion , thats a perfect recruiting ground ,
for them to corrupt more minds ,
if we are ever going to dig ourselves out of the darkness and ignorance of religion , it will be by replacing them , by doing the job they do ...!!!
You idea is no better than any other political ideology.[/quote]

[chaz wyman]

In other words you are going to act like a priest for The Church of Atheism.
You are going to peddle a dogma and impose your world view that God is wrong, God does not exist, and God is a lie.
Have I got that right so far?

I can think of no better way to force Xianity underground; make it attractive and popular.
That is Exactly how it spread throughout the Empire of Rome, where there was religious freedom and tolerance except that it was required to include the Secular Authority in divine observance. It was the refusal by Xians to worship the emperor that made Xianity proscribed and illegal. It was a massive fillip to its followers who could appear as martyrs and rebels; result - it spread like wildfire through the cities of the empire and eventually was the only religion that was allowed.

that may have happened then ,,
but it wouldn't now , because we actually do know reality,

Who's "we"?

it wouldn't be one pack of lies for another , one ruthless dictator for another ,
it would be reality vrs fantasy truth vrs bullshit ,

What about your bullshit?

we can now for the first time in history , prove religion is a load of rubbish ,

You cannot prove anything.

[Godfree]

0]
Who's "we"?

[/color]it wouldn't be one pack of lies for another , one ruthless dictator for another ,
it would be reality vrs fantasy truth vrs bullshit ,

What about your bullshit?

we can now for the first time in history , prove religion is a load of rubbish ,

You cannot prove anything.

[/quote][/quote]
we have proven evolution , that proves the bible wrong ,
we can prove dinosaurs , that proves the bible is ignorant ,
and we can also prove the age of the earth and us ,
which the bible was ignorant of as well,
we now know Noahs ark is impossible,
how many times do we have to show how ignorant the bible is before people will realize it's fairy tale ,,,???

[chaz wyman]

0]
Who's "we"?

[/color]it wouldn't be one pack of lies for another , one ruthless dictator for another ,
it would be reality vrs fantasy truth vrs bullshit ,

What about your bullshit?

we can now for the first time in history , prove religion is a load of rubbish ,

You cannot prove anything.

[/quote]
we have proven evolution , that proves the bible wrong ,

No, the bible is a metaphor.

we can prove dinosaurs , that proves the bible is ignorant ,
and we can also prove the age of the earth and us ,
which the bible was ignorant of as well,
we now know Noahs ark is impossible,
how many times do we have to show how ignorant the bible is before people will realize it's fairy tale ,,,???[/quote]

No one is interested in that. The thread is about God.
You cannot prove a thing not to exist.

[Godfree]

0]
Who's "we"?

[/color]it wouldn't be one pack of lies for another , one ruthless dictator for another ,
it would be reality vrs fantasy truth vrs bullshit ,

What about your bullshit?

we can now for the first time in history , prove religion is a load of rubbish ,

You cannot prove anything.

we have proven evolution , that proves the bible wrong ,

No, the bible is a metaphor.

we can prove dinosaurs , that proves the bible is ignorant ,
and we can also prove the age of the earth and us ,
which the bible was ignorant of as well,
we now know Noahs ark is impossible,
how many times do we have to show how ignorant the bible is before people will realize it's fairy tale ,,,???[/quote]

No one is interested in that. The thread is about God.
You cannot prove a thing not to exist.
[/quote]
that sounds a bit unreal ,
we can based on reality , the real world as we know it today ,
reject theories because they are impossible by the standards we know .
magic , you say we can't prove magic is not real ,,,???
Nessy , we can't prove Nessy not to exist,,???
you sound like your making sense ,
but really that doesn't make any sense at all .
obviously we can prove things not to exist ,
Yeti , Nessy , god ,the devil , life after death ,
we can prove these things don't exist ,
because they are impossible , there is no rational explanation ,
that makes it possible for these things to exist ,
unless you are prepared to throw science out the window ,
these things are impossible ,,!!!

[chaz wyman]

d in that. The thread is about God.
You cannot prove a thing not to exist.
[/color]
that sounds a bit unreal ,
we can based on reality , the real world as we know it today ,
reject theories because they are impossible by the standards we know .
magic , you say we can't prove magic is not real ,,,???
Nessy , we can't prove Nessy not to exist,,???
you sound like your making sense ,
but really that doesn't make any sense at all .
obviously we can prove things not to exist ,
Yeti , Nessy , god ,the devil , life after death ,
we can prove these things don't exist ,
because they are impossible , there is no rational explanation ,
that makes it possible for these things to exist ,
unless you are prepared to throw science out the window ,
these things are impossible ,,!!!

If you think you have the hotline to REALITY whilst others do not - that makes you a damn fool.

[Mike Strand]

I've been away from the forum for some time, and thank you all for your interest in this topic and the issues it raises.

The title of my topic here is a little ambiguous, in order to save space. A better way to state the question might be: Is there a sentient being who is responsible for the existence of humanity, who loves humanity, and who has great power and great knowledge?

This way of stating the topic title expresses my own idea of who I would personally like God to be. It may not be your idea of who “Our God” is.

I don’t know whether such a being exists. But if I were to assume such a being does exist, as many believing people do, I think I can defend the idea of universal salvation – the idea that nobody will go to a place called “hell” forever. That everyone will end up in heaven eventually (constant and eternal happiness, health and safety), with at worst long but finite sojourns in “hell”. A corollary would be that we would be able to bring our beloved pets (if any) along with us.

Replace “humanity” by “porpoises” or “cocker spaniels” in the topic re-titling, and the new being may not care about the fate of humanity. Or assume no such being exists, and we are on our own to create “hell” or “heaven” on earth while we live as biological creatures. Our common fate then is probably the grave – eternal rest and peace -- a metaphorical salvation.

My point in starting this thread is that defining what I am talking about and stating my assumptions are necessary for discussion and reasoning, and my conclusions are highly dependent upon these assumptions and definitions. Not very profound, but I think this reminder may be useful to the participants in this forum.

[Godfree]

The title of my topic here is a little ambiguous, in order to save space. A better way to state the question might be: Is there a sentient being who is responsible for the existence of humanity, who loves humanity, and who has great power and great knowledge?

I don't think that is in any way possible ,
if such a being existed , the world as I see it , has not been managed by ,
love and knowledge , more savage ignorance and blood lust ,
as I have said in the past , if you ever find the dickhead who's responsible for this mess I would like a word with it ,,,
why is god hiding , who is it hiding from ,
loves humanity ,, just the last two thousand years alone have been a murderous orgy of killing and blood lust ,
I hate to think what it was like before that ,
great knowledge , like the dinosaurs ,???
you seem like an intelligent man Mike,
We humans are that , love power and knowledge ,
we created god ,and science and technology ,
god has reached it's use by date , time to move on ,
but humanity refuses to get out of nappies ,
peter pans , all living in never never land ,
children who can never never seem to grow up ,,,!!!

[Typist]

Replace “humanity” by “porpoises” or “cocker spaniels” in the topic re-titling, and the new being may not care about the fate of humanity.

I thought this was the most interesting part of your opening post. There is a very strong bias to see ourselves, humans, as the center of everything, and this is perhaps one symptom of our lack of intelligence.

The Florida hiking season is currently in it's peak of glory, and I've just spent all of the last three days, dawn to dusk, in the woods. From that perspective, the activities of human beings seem much less interesting and important. Like a pointless clamor, somewhere way off in the distance, just at the edge of hearing.

Humans are kind of like crows, we're always flying around from tree to tree, making a bunch of racket, endlessly arguing with each other, constantly busy busy busy and on the go go go etc. Intelligent, but stupid acting.

Vultures are far more interesting. They spend hour after hour surfing the thermals, circling circling circling, without flapping a wing, so high up they can't possibly be hunting. I think they are just quietly and ever so gracefully fully enjoying being alive. That's intelligence, without the stupid acting.

Vultures are also interesting as they are so incredibly ugly and disgusting on the ground, and yet so beautiful and graceful in flight.

They seem to embody the fullness of nature. The horrible, and the glorious, all in one, together, like the concept of God.

So I ask you Mike, is there a God for vultures?

[chaz wyman]

I've been away from the forum for some time, and thank you all for your interest in this topic and the issues it raises.

The title of my topic here is a little ambiguous, in order to save space. A better way to state the question might be: Is there a sentient being who is responsible for the existence of humanity, who loves humanity, and who has great power and great knowledge?

This way of stating the topic title expresses my own idea of who I would personally like God to be. It may not be your idea of who “Our God” is.

I don’t know whether such a being exists. But if I were to assume such a being does exist, as many believing people do, I think I can defend the idea of universal salvation – the idea that nobody will go to a place called “hell” forever. That everyone will end up in heaven eventually (constant and eternal happiness, health and safety), with at worst long but finite sojourns in “hell”. A corollary would be that we would be able to bring our beloved pets (if any) along with us.

Replace “humanity” by “porpoises” or “cocker spaniels” in the topic re-titling, and the new being may not care about the fate of humanity. Or assume no such being exists, and we are on our own to create “hell” or “heaven” on earth while we live as biological creatures. Our common fate then is probably the grave – eternal rest and peace -- a metaphorical salvation.

My point in starting this thread is that defining what I am talking about and stating my assumptions are necessary for discussion and reasoning, and my conclusions are highly dependent upon these assumptions and definitions. Not very profound, but I think this reminder may be useful to the participants in this forum.

" Is there a sentient being who is responsible for the existence of humanity, who loves humanity, and who has great power and great knowledge?"

Given your definition; it is clear enough that such a being does not and cannot exist. So the answer to your question is definitely NO.
It is beyond ridiculous. There are plenty of avenues of investigation that would utterly refute the existence of such a being along the lines of evolution, the problem of evil, the arbitrariness of disease and disaster - and basically the cold hard nature of reality.
I submit that you DO INDEED know that such a being cannot exist. Which makes me puzzled as to why you have put the question.
Neither have you the slightest hope of defending the idea of 'universal salvation', as all the evidence points to death as an end - for us and for every other living thing yet seen in nature. Death is not Salvation

You might want to posit another definition, but you will get no where with this one if you are looking for a yes answer.

[Arising_uk]

I thought this was the most interesting part of your opening post. There is a very strong bias to see ourselves, humans, as the center of everything, and this is perhaps one symptom of our lack of intelligence....

Vultures are far more interesting. They spend hour after hour surfing the thermals, circling circling circling, without flapping a wing, so high up they can't possibly be hunting. I think they are just quietly and ever so gracefully fully enjoying being alive. That's intelligence, without the stupid acting.

Vultures are also interesting as they are so incredibly ugly and disgusting on the ground, and yet so beautiful and graceful in flight.

They seem to embody the fullness of nature. The horrible, and the glorious, all in one, together, like the concept of God. ...

Given your first statement do you understand your lack of intelligence in the anthropomorphism in the rest?

And yes they are hunting and not flying around for the fun of it.

[Mike Strand]

Typist, I like your note on vultures, I see them a lot here in Virginia, and they are beautiful in flight. Yes, Arising_uk, they are looking for food, but this consists mainly of dead things, and they clean them up, and ... well, cleanliness is next to Godliness. (Which may answer Typist's question).

Chaz:
I have to admit the God I describe, one that a lot of friends of mine hope and pine for, appears totally implausible, the existence of which is easy to refute. Is God's love "tough love", letting us stew in our own "hell", so we'll be grateful for salvation? But then, why do children get abused and suffer of starvation and get forced to be child warriors and die before they even reach puberty (or even one year of life), while some old reprobates enjoy the good life?

Did this loving God start things up and then go on a long vacation?

Some folks may argue that death is salvation -- the ones for which life is hell. As for those who live comfortably: Don't even they appreciate a good night's sleep? You know, unconscious, dreamless and blissful sleep for 8 hours after a hard day at the office? So an atheist may be a universal "salvationist", posing death as a metaphorical heaven -- a deep sleep lasting forever. This is better than eternal damnation at the hands of a stern and judgmental super being, I'm thinking. And it puts us all in the same boat, with the same fate, and I have no reason to place myself above or below anyone else on the grounds of creed or religion.

[chaz wyman]

Typist, I like your note on vultures, I see them a lot here in Virginia, and they are beautiful in flight. Yes, Arising_uk, they are looking for food, but this consists mainly of dead things, and they clean them up, and ... well, cleanliness is next to Godliness. (Which may answer Typist's question).

Chaz:
I have to admit the God I describe, one that a lot of friends of mine hope and pine for, appears totally implausible, the existence of which is easy to refute. Is God's love "tough love", letting us stew in our own "hell", so we'll be grateful for salvation? But then, why do children get abused and suffer of starvation and get forced to be child warriors and die before they even reach puberty (or even one year of life), while some old reprobates enjoy the good life?

Did this loving God start things up and then go on a long vacation?

Some folks may argue that death is salvation -- the ones for which life is hell. As for those who live comfortably: Don't even they appreciate a good night's sleep? You know, unconscious, dreamless and blissful sleep for 8 hours after a hard day at the office? So an atheist may be a universal "salvationist", posing death as a metaphorical heaven -- a deep sleep lasting forever. This is better than eternal damnation at the hands of a stern and judgmental super being, I'm thinking. And it puts us all in the same boat, with the same fate, and I have no reason to place myself above or below anyone else on the grounds of creed or religion.

I've had my share of suffering and I know damned well that in the last breathing gasps that death will probably be welcome, and the last moments completely desolate. But god doesn't get off the hook, nor can he take any credit for the final 'salvation' - when the whole ten yards is supposedly his design; his suffering; his death; his desolation.
But even so I don't see death as as some kind of salvation even if my last gasp is horrific. Life is good, I love it. Death can only ever be a disappointment.

[Arising_uk]

Personally I like the marxist biologists, J.B.S Haldane, (apocryphal) response when asked what could be inferred about the mind of 'God' from 'His' creation, "An inordinate fondness for beetles".

[Mike Strand]

Chaz, you said it well:

But even so I don't see death as as some kind of salvation even if my last gasp is horrific. Life is good, I love it. Death can only ever be a disappointment.

I agree with your viewpoint! Life can be good, and my enjoyment of it should not depend on whether I cease to exist with the grave or not.

My point is that death need not be feared. I think fearing death can take away from the good life. Those who are told by religious zealots that they are damned and start believing it may have more trouble enjoying life than those who think biological death is the end.

Your comment around "god doesn't get off the hook" reminds me that maybe the idea of god coming to earth as Jesus to live and suffer with and for us helps some believers let god off the hook, for all the crap humanity has to put up with. I tend to disagree with this tortured argument for the existence of pain and suffering. If a loving and powerful god exists, what's the point of putting us and himself through suffering in the first place? To build character? I could argue that, if god has great knowledge and power, he could have created us with good character in the first place.

Arising_uk, I enjoyed seeing the Haldane quote again. If it's true that the meek are blessed and will inherit the earth, it would appear that this refers to beetles, rats, cockroaches, and such. These forms of life are more likely than humans to survive any massive disaster caused by humans or by ..... well, an Act of God (like the big meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs).