Beyond Good and Evil

[bobevenson]

As it says in Rev. 17:17, a description of the beast in chapter and verse, "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." God hath put the answer in our hearts, but our institutions keep it from reaching our minds.

[artisticsolution]

Hi Wal,

I think the bible is ambiguous for a reason. Most Christian's believe that the bible is the word of God and that it was written by man with God's direction and so God would not allow his book to be written incorrectly. But I can't help but think that if that is true...then isn't it also true that even though our language changes and trends change that our hearts would still know what God meant? I mean deep inside most of us know, whether we believe in God or not, that most of the 10 commandments make sense....we know when we make a judgment whether or not we are being evil in our hearts. To me...this is the only time we can judge anything correctly...when we judge ourselves. If the judgement we make for ourselves is one that we believe to be good...without a shadow of a doubt, then it is good.

But then what is God's will? For example, Hitler is seen as an evil man. To most people he is in hell. But I say that is for God to know only, as only God knows what is in Hitler's heart. Hitler could have been insane through no fault of his own. Who knows for sure.

But to believe in God was how I was raised. I don't expect another to think the way I think...and I don't think God will hold it against them if they don't. That is their deal with God...not mine. I just can't wrap my head around a God who would send an atheist to hell, as it's not fair seeing as they weren't brainwashed as a child like I was. I would go one step further and say that if God sent an atheist to hell...he would not be the God I know inside my heart and I would not follow him. Because I KNOW inside that is not God. But just because I know...doesn't mean you understand the same thing. Your relationship with God is your thing and my relationship with him is mine. I can only make judgements based on my knowledge...I can't make them based on your knowledge. If you want to let the church tell you how to think and tell you how God thinks...then that is your deal. But for me that would be a sin...and since I am the only one who will stand before God in Judgement for my sins, I will pick and choose which ones they are and not let mankind tell me what they are.

When I need reassurance of how I am to behave I say the Lord's prayer. Not because I know there is a God...but because I feel there is a God.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

[Walgekaaren]

But then what is God's will? For example, Hitler is seen as an evil man. To most people he is in hell. But I say that is for God to know only, as only God knows what is in Hitler's heart. Hitler could have been insane through no fault of his own. Who knows for sure.

Good girl! You are indeed correct. We cannot know who goes to hell or to heaven, for we look with eyes but God looks the heart. (was somethere in the bible)

that wasnt really my consern to tell that. My consern is how to live without lables 'Good' and 'evil' and venture beyond them. For people some times use these labels to gain personal intrest and not Gods will. - I know Gods will by reading the Bible as do you as a Christian.

To be a Christian, is not to be in a church, a member of Christendom, but a solitary individual, who lives by his/her own mind, enlightend by scripture. That solitary individual may be a member of a church, but not nescescarily.

But just because I know...doesn't mean you understand the same thing. Your relationship with God is your thing and my relationship with him is mine. I can only make judgements based on my knowledge...I can't make them based on your knowledge. If you want to let the church tell you how to think and tell you how God thinks...then that is your deal. But for me that would be a sin...and since I am the only one who will stand before God in Judgement for my sins, I will pick and choose which ones they are and not let mankind tell me what they are.

It is sayd that you can judge with two or three witnesses. To think for yourself is good, to listen to others experience from time to time even better, that wont alter your beliefs, it just helps them purify themselves. For we arent correct all the time because of our corrupted mind, but with the help of the Holy spirit we can acheeve true greatness and be like Jesus.

For Jesus has sayd: "He who does what I sayd, will not only do these things but even grater ones."

We are now arguing on a dialogue level and together with the holy spirit we are three persons or witnesses of faith, thus totally capable to decide what is right or wrong. Otherwise our faith is in vain, if we couldnt seclude one from the other.

People only fail to realise that because they want to be solitary egotists with a slice of grandeur and longing for aproval from the crowd, and not individuals. Only individuals can form a conversation of such kind as I mentioned, and as I can recall from your post.

We do not think differently, we just use our language in different ways...

[chaz wyman]

A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the "gods":
"How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?" Selah Defend the
cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the
weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. "They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken." "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High."But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. Ps 82:1-8 NIV

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?" John 10:34 NIV

If we are gods why then dont we act like gods? Why is our creation still stronger than us? All the comersials and thoughts are mightier than us. Why is it that man cannot rule the world but the dollar bill?

QED - you need a religious forum.

You'll need to lighten up a bit, one mans philosophy is other mans religion.

Is that your religious opinion?
It would seem to any dispassionate observer that it is you that is being a hardball and in need of 'lightening up"

If I would say it in a religious forum I would be called a blasfemer at best as happened to Kierkegaard, who was threttened to be thrown out of the state-church for his views. Or just be hushed down. In a philosophical forum I can see views different from mine and advance my knoledge a bit.

I disagree. I think you would find many other people who would see your offerings as the random and unphilosophical ramblings of a fundamentally religious mind.

You just cannot argue Nietzsche or Beyond Good and evil in a Christian friendly way around Christendom - I once tried, and the audience got really hostile and silent. I like to think outside of the box... That can be done on 'nomansland' there are no Christian dogmas around what say which is the right way to worship Christ.

And THAT is why you would be at home with their random ramblings about the nature of good and evil

What I want to acheave with this thread, is a type of Christian sensing what works without any architecture and gothermental aid. A claping with one hand like the budists say.

HA, good luck with that! And now tell me where is the philosophy?

For gotherment and architecture i. e. Christendom tend to leave the faith out and the people in. But I want to be there Jesus is - outside.

Eh? Gotherment? Outside where?


This type of sensing doesnt need a name. It is beyond names and values.

It's called a furtive imagination. This is fantasy, not philosophy.

For values are from humans and not from God. But I want to offer what I have learned from my faith, what can aid those, who are not in the church and never will be. I'll use my knoledge and you'll have the freedom to use yours and quote whatever you like.

I'll summarise my previous post to you in different words: "Why is it difficult to be good and act rightfully then we know whats good and how to act? If we see a wallet with 100 dollars in it, why are we tempted to not seek its owner but keep it?"

Your turn chaz

Give me some philosophy first.

[chaz wyman]

Hi Wal,

I think the bible is ambiguous for a reason. Most Christian's believe that the bible is the word of God and that it was written by man with God's direction and so God would not allow his book to be written incorrectly. But I can't help but think that if that is true...then isn't it also true that even though our language changes and trends change that our hearts would still know what God meant? I mean deep inside most of us know, whether we believe in God or not, that most of the 10 commandments make sense....we know when we make a judgment whether or not we are being evil in our hearts. To me...this is the only time we can judge anything correctly...when we judge ourselves. If the judgement we make for ourselves is one that we believe to be good...without a shadow of a doubt, then it is good.

But then what is God's will? For example, Hitler is seen as an evil man. To most people he is in hell. But I say that is for God to know only, as only God knows what is in Hitler's heart. Hitler could have been insane through no fault of his own. Who knows for sure.

But to believe in God was how I was raised. I don't expect another to think the way I think...and I don't think God will hold it against them if they don't. That is their deal with God...not mine. I just can't wrap my head around a God who would send an atheist to hell, as it's not fair seeing as they weren't brainwashed as a child like I was. I would go one step further and say that if God sent an atheist to hell...he would not be the God I know inside my heart and I would not follow him. Because I KNOW inside that is not God. But just because I know...doesn't mean you understand the same thing. Your relationship with God is your thing and my relationship with him is mine. I can only make judgements based on my knowledge...I can't make them based on your knowledge. If you want to let the church tell you how to think and tell you how God thinks...then that is your deal. But for me that would be a sin...and since I am the only one who will stand before God in Judgement for my sins, I will pick and choose which ones they are and not let mankind tell me what they are.

When I need reassurance of how I am to behave I say the Lord's prayer. Not because I know there is a God...but because I feel there is a God.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

Surrogate Daddy.

[Arising_uk]

Because we are created in God's image?

Ja! He's a Brazilian Lady-Boy. Yummee.

[chaz wyman]

Because we are created in God's image?

Ja! He's a Brazilian Lady-Boy. Yummee.

No, God as we all know is the greater JUb-JUb Bird of Alpha Centauri.
All Centaurians can fly and they are the most advanced species in the Universe!

[Arising_uk]

...
To be a Christian, is not to be in a church, a member of Christendom, but a solitary individual, who lives by his/her own mind, enlightend by scripture. That solitary individual may be a member of a church, but not nescescarily. ...

I think not as this is exactly the path the Catholic Church advocates for its priests.

If you do read the King James NT then pretty quickly you will find that to be a Christian is to say the Lords Prayer in private and act upon it, no more scripture needed.

[Arising_uk]

Because we are created in God's image?

Ja! He's a Brazilian Lady-Boy. Yummee.

No, God as we all know is the greater JUb-JUb Bird of Alpha Centauri.
All Centaurians can fly and they are the most advanced species in the Universe!

We both know this as a lie and got the pirates to prove it. Maybe a lesser monster. Aaarrrggghhh! Pastafari!

(Although sorry your Noodliness for proselytizing, try not to do it again but was talking to a fellow believer I think)

R'amen.

[Walgekaaren]

...
To be a Christian, is not to be in a church, a member of Christendom, but a solitary individual, who lives by his/her own mind, enlightend by scripture. That solitary individual may be a member of a church, but not nescescarily. ...

I think not as this is exactly the path the Catholic Church advocates for its priests.

If you do read the King James NT then pretty quickly you will find that to be a Christian is to say the Lords Prayer in private and act upon it, no more scripture needed.

If all your Christianity consists of that prayer then thats gonna happen:

1.Our Father who art in heaven - Because your living in a contemporary world there Gagarin went to space and Armstrong to the moon, your image of 'outwhere in heaven' becomes blurred, and your getting confused every time you talking to nonbelievers, for you cannot explain it to them there is 'heaven'...

2.hallowed be thy name - People dont even know what hallowed means today. If they've watched the show Charmed there three witches fight demons and other stuff they get even more confused and might mix up things getting the false assumption it has something to do with magic. And not with inner and outer holyness.

3.Thy kingdom come. - In America all are democrats thus revolutionarys oposite to any kingdom or king after the Boston tea party and french revolution. Estonians, who normally copy the American enterprise - well you get the point...

4.Thy will be done - Free will(y) man free will If you restricts someones will(y) you'd be called a muslim faster than I can cite the Moses prayer.

5.on earth as it is in heaven. - please read first phrase again

6.Give us this day our daily bread - Our daily bread comes nowadays from the market and not from the field, so people have no respect towards it. In estonia we have a tradition to kiss the loaf of bread then it has fallen to the ground to show our respect towards it. The father always cuts the bread and offers each one loaf with his hand. But this was so in the 19th century and thanks to the 'american dream' it fades pretty fast. Nowadays estonians only cut costs and prices to earn more money and not bread. Old traditions are abandoned fast...

7.and forgive us our trespasses - In america there is the saying: A man is not guilty unless proven so in the court so this is confusing to contemporary mind. We do not live or think like we have trespassed any law or area, we are supposed not to do. We dont have this sense of sin anymore like in the 19th century.

8.as we forgive those who trespass against us - See 9 11th for how americans forgave to the muslims and wounded knee how they did with the indians. People dont forgive if they are wronged! Period

9.and lead us not into temptation - is this for real? TV; 'American dream'; etc. is all for the sake to lead us into temptation. This is what capitalism is to tempt to raise and spend more money so others may earn it.

10.but deliver us from evil. - We have Big Brother to watch after us

11.For thine is the kingdom - See phrase 3 about kingdoms

12.and the power, and the glory - See phrases 4;7;8;10

13.for ever and ever. Amen. - thats a long time dude

Without proper knoledge this prayer could mean the end of your faith. Of course you there arguing that most of the believers are dumb and dont think at all. But you'd be surprised how much they actually know, lest they would speak about it.

To tell the truth God may kill any of us for this prayer, for many violate the first and second comandment by simply reciting that prayer. For they dont know what they are praying.

[Walgekaaren]

And if people say that is non-christian read the passage there Jesus is talking to the Samaritan woman about where to worship God. I recall it was in our heart and not in some holy mountain or place or establishment.

[Arising_uk]

My Bible has it as,
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine
is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

My understanding is do it on your own in a closet. Ponder its meaning as you do so then act by it.

I think us not so dumb as to not be able to make meaning of the above. No peddlers of scripture needed.

Why do you think this 'God' would kill the Christian for saying the Lords Prayer? What commandments does it break?

[chaz wyman]

Busmans Prayer


Our Farnham,[1] who art in Hendon
Harrow be Thy name.[2]
Thy Kingston come; thy Wimbledon,
In Erith as it is in Hendon.
Give us this day our daily Brent [3]
And forgive us our Westminster[4]
As we forgive those who Westminster against us.[5]
And lead us not into Thames Ditton[6]
But deliver us from Yeovil.[7]
For Thine is the Kingston, the Purley and the Crawley,[8]
For Esher and Esher.[9]
Crouch End.

Ian Dury


For the hard of reading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWKcCZ1S ... re=related

and for the hard of thinking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4PQ30VkBk

This is the sort of indoctrination upon which all belief systems rely, including Godfrey's.

[Walgekaaren]

Busmans Prayer


Our Farnham,[1] who art in Hendon
Harrow be Thy name.[2]
Thy Kingston come; thy Wimbledon,
In Erith as it is in Hendon.
Give us this day our daily Brent [3]
And forgive us our Westminster[4]
As we forgive those who Westminster against us.[5]
And lead us not into Thames Ditton[6]
But deliver us from Yeovil.[7]
For Thine is the Kingston, the Purley and the Crawley,[8]
For Esher and Esher.[9]
Crouch End.

Ian Dury


For the hard of reading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWKcCZ1S ... re=related

and for the hard of thinking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4PQ30VkBk

This is the sort of indoctrination upon which all belief systems rely, including Godfrey's.

Still it accounts for that people dont know anymore what the Lords prayer was ment to. It was to end the endless and long prayers that in the end ment nothing, for people didnt know what they there praying. The lords prayer gave a short version what to ask and to hope and that was converted by time and tradition to new emptyness.

[Walgekaaren]

My Bible has it as,
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine
is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

My understanding is do it on your own in a closet. Ponder its meaning as you do so then act by it.

I think us not so dumb as to not be able to make meaning of the above. No peddlers of scripture needed.

Why do you think this 'God' would kill the Christian for saying the Lords Prayer? What commandments does it break?

Because he doesnt mean it by heart but by tradition like the pharisees who are now mocked for being ignorant and cruel but the christians arent any better. We have made the Lords prayer into a tradition like to the budhist the turning of the prayer-wheel counts for a thousand prayers without praying them. That is too cheep for me. Try reciting the Lords prayer a 100 times in a row and you know what I mean. - You simply cannot do it by heart for wery long, for you wear off and drose from the first cheerful effort and love into disgust and sleepiness. Your mind starts to wander around and it gets really hard to think the meaning of words you are chanting. So you get mad at yourself and filled with guilt and try even harder untill you brake under the exhaustion. - And finally loose your faith.

Or you just avoid such endevours and hold on your faith...