What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

[SpheresOfBalance]

<snip>
The Frosting:
The truth is not only in front of us All, it is us All.
I disagree as to the totality of your assertion but agree incrementally.

1) I agree that in fact, all that exists, truly exists.
2) I agree that in fact, the beliefs that we all have, truly exists.
3) I do not agree that in fact, all our beliefs are absolutely true.
4) I agree that in fact, all our individual beliefs are true to each of us individually, which is relative to our knowledge (understanding).
5) I 'know' that in fact, anyone that believes that all the beliefs of all of us, are absolutely true despite their contradictions, is a would be anarchist that truthfully knows not what they think they know, unless they have served on the front, and fully understand "Mutually Assured Destruction," and if they do, and are still anarchists then they are in fact (truthfully) suicidal and thus psychotic.

Truth is!
So 'truth is,' but not all 'that is,' 'is true,' lest you be a fool or psychotic!


Bon appetite,
Some people just chew on fat!

[MJA]

Measure is the flaw that stands in the Way.

=

[lancek4]

That humans Have measure or our way of measuring?

Measure? What is measure?

[..nameless..]

"Ultimately 'lies' are True as they are subsets of Truth. Locally, with definitional limitations ('exclusivity' rather than the 'inclusivity' (Oneness) of the 'Set') there are 'falsehoods'."

So then everything you hear is true and false depending on what?

Perspective.
'True' and 'false' are two Perspectives of the same One Reality!

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense." -Robert Anton Wilson

"The flaw of classical science is the assumption of empiricism, which has been refuted by quantum, as has the obsolete notion of the 'independent observer'."

Are we not independent observers?

'Independent' of what? Define, please, what you mean by "independent".
We are all One Omni- 'Self!' (Reality/Truth/whatever...) What else can we observe/perceive but 'Self!'? All awareness is 'Self!' awareness!
We are all unique Perspectives of the same One Reality.
Like the faceting of a dragon-fly's eye, perspectives are 'numerous', Consciousness is One!
Again, 'independent' of what?

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman

The only laws of nature are the ones created by independent observation right?

Yeah, you can say that. I find 'laws' to be 'thoughts' (all 'meaning/laws' exists as 'thought'), some people perceive (not create!) 'lawful' thoughts, others thoughts of more cheese on the nachos.
Depends on the Perspective. The 'thopughts' are a feature of Reality/Self that are perceived by many Perspectives simultaneously, synchronously, just like the rest of existence. Thoughts/ego needn't be 'transcended' but it is as/in 'thought/ego' alone that subject/object distinctions are perceived. Sans 'thought', all are perceived as One.

But if there is no such thing then nature is truly lawless and free.

The quote refered to a synchronously existing universe, where all moments of existence exist Now! No before, no after (other than as 'thought/memory...), just one timeless 'Big Bang' of Now! of 'Self! Knowledge!
In light of this Reality, where do you find your 'freedom'? To do what?

"All existence ('Self Knowledge') is one timeless Planck (almost 10^-43/sec; one billion trillion trillion trillionths of a second!) moment, Now!"

Was Planck the observer?
I think you should double check his measurements!

Yes, 'Planck' perceived the thoughts...
'Observer' / 'perceiver' yes, he is.
Unless something has radically changed recently (or i made a typo (where's the spell-check on here?)) I have seen the numbers from a few different Perspectives. I haven't heard of them toppling... Rather than being cryptic, do you have a point here?
The exact numbers are not relevant as we cannot possibly imagine anything that small (as 'Souls'; Conscious (of course, everything is) Perspectives! It works better than "seventy times seven...".
*__-

Measure is the flaw that stands in the Way.

'Measure' is one feature of the Tao.
I translate your 'measurement' to mean 'thought/ego'. 'Thought' is where all such duality/division/fragmentation exists. One must begin with a 'whole' and fragment it by 'measuring' with the ego-eye Perspective.. 'This not that, these not those, me not you...' Then 'fragments' are 'measured' into more fragments... But that which is 'measured', perceived dualistically, does exist! Is Truth! One! That is what the thoughts/ego is, it divides that which is indivisible, the undifferentiated potential (Bindu), into such 'Perspectives/fragments' that 'Self!' is Now fully perceived!

In quantum physics, that would translate to the basic quantum probability waves (undifferentiated potential, mind, Bindu) being ineffable 'Self!'/Consciousness, but when perceived by ('the observer') Souls/Conscious Perspectives/us, it is the perceived (Knowledge
is that which is perceived) Universe (Reality/Truth/'Self!'/Tao/Consciousness/ Buddha...)
Whew!
And that's the Truth!
*__-

[lancek4]

Sounds very similar to (I think it is) Levinas, who (ithink) puts it as 'as if in paretheses'.

Ok, but so what?

Someone else has said, if there is no history (measure), then there is no anlalysis. The Zen 'all is one' thing, can only go two ways: either one then begins to speculate upon 'metaphysical-spirirtual' objects, or the discussion closes with a communal-individual "Oooooohhhhhhhmmmmm, yeeesssssssss. I uuunnderssstannnndd".

how do you propose to 'bracket' This discussion?
I mean, "Truth Is", now what do we 'see' now of it (since at this point then we are seeing the Trruth, yes?)

Or, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how or why 'others' are 'stopped' from seeing this Truth.

[MJA]

"Yes, 'Planck' perceived the thoughts...
'Observer' / 'perceiver' yes, he is.
Unless something has radically changed recently (or i made a typo (where's the spell-check on here?)) I have seen the numbers from a few different Perspectives. I haven't heard of them toppling... Rather than being cryptic, do you have a point here?
The exact numbers are not relevant as we cannot possibly imagine anything that small (as 'Souls'; Conscious (of course, everything is) Perspectives! It works better than "seventy times seven...".


If the number is not relevant than why is it relevent to you?

Thanks,

=

[MJA]

"Or, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how or why 'others' are 'stopped' from seeing this Truth."


Enlightenment:

To lighten the load,
To uncover the truth
To see the light
To be the light
To be true
To be
You

=

Removing measure from you daily life will help you find you.
And once you find you, you find All!
One is All there truly IS.

[lancek4]

"Or, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how or why 'others' are 'stopped' from seeing this Truth."


Enlightenment:

To lighten the load,
To uncover the truth
To see the light
To be the light
To be true
To be
You

=

Removing measure from you daily life will help you find you.
And once you find you, you find All!
One is All there truly IS.

Yes, ok. I unnderstand. Like I have replied to Typists similar assertions: do you understand that I understand this?

If you do, can you tell me why it is others don't ?

[Godfree]

"Or, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how or why 'others' are 'stopped' from seeing this Truth."


Enlightenment:

To lighten the load,
To uncover the truth
To see the light
To be the light
To be true
To be
You

=

Removing measure from you daily life will help you find you.
And once you find you, you find All!
One is All there truly IS.

Yes, ok. I unnderstand. Like I have replied to Typists similar assertions: do you understand that I understand this?

If you do, can you tell me why it is others don't ?

There appears to be the assumption , that all one has to do is follow a few steps and we will be enlightened .
that we will then think like you , like your "truth" is the one and only truth ,
but my truth is the one and only truth ,
we can't have two opposing one and only truths ,
I'm a stubborn mule and will not be changing ,
nor will you by the sounds of things ,
truth wars , I find it easy to talk in vague non specific terms ,
it gets hard when asked for a specific ,
I can list my truths ,
There is no god , heaven or life after death ,
The universe is infinite , ie , there was no beginning ,
We are monkey , and evolved , some more than others ,,!!
So hit me with your best shot , are your truths the same as mine ,??
some claim multiple universes , are you claiming multiple realities ,
reality is an individual experience ,
however there is only one reality , one real world ,
to know that world is my aim ,
many seem happy to live in fantasy land ,??
but I can't , fantasy bores me , reality is what spins my wheels ..!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Measure is the flaw that stands in the Way.
You just measured! So your words are flawed and stand in the way.
=

[lancek4]

"Or, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how or why 'others' are 'stopped' from seeing this Truth."


Enlightenment:

To lighten the load,
To uncover the truth
To see the light
To be the light
To be true
To be
You

=

Removing measure from you daily life will help you find you.
And once you find you, you find All!
One is All there truly IS.

Yes, ok. I unnderstand. Like I have replied to Typists similar assertions: do you understand that I understand this?

If you do, can you tell me why it is others don't ?

There appears to be the assumption , that all one has to do is follow a few steps and we will be enlightened .
that we will then think like you , like your "truth" is the one and only truth ,
but my truth is the one and only truth ,
we can't have two opposing one and only truths ,
I'm a stubborn mule and will not be changing ,
nor will you by the sounds of things ,
truth wars , I find it easy to talk in vague non specific terms ,
it gets hard when asked for a specific ,
I can list my truths ,
There is no god , heaven or life after death ,
The universe is infinite , ie , there was no beginning ,
We are monkey , and evolved , some more than others ,,!!
So hit me with your best shot , are your truths the same as mine ,??
some claim multiple universes , are you claiming multiple realities ,
reality is an individual experience ,
however there is only one reality , one real world ,
to know that world is my aim ,
many seem happy to live in fantasy land ,??
but I can't , fantasy bores me , reality is what spins my wheels ..!!

Ok, I undertsnad 'your' truth is "the' truth, do you have a truth about why others can't see it?

[..nameless..]

If the number is not relevant than why is it relevent to you?

Do you think that i just fell from the sky with all this crap? I can scientifically and philosophically support anything that i have to offer here.
I skip to the 'punchline' and some freak out and some are open enough to question.
One point is that a Planck length is the size of a Perspective, a 'Soul', and a planck moment is a unit of Perception, a 'percept'. If you are still bent on 'correcting' some perceived misunderstanding, just link me to it.
Otherwise, 'nuff said.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0126626/ ... iverse.htm
"...known as the Planck time, only 10-43/sec..."

http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org ... ality.html
"And let's ponder that initial inflationary period of the physical universe: the infinitesimal Planck moment, the tiniest moment in physics, 10-43 second—a ..."

It's all over the net.
'Nough said.

[MJA]

"Ok, I undertsnad 'your' truth is "the' truth, do you have a truth about why others can't see it?"

Some are stuck on Planck units and others on other theories and still others on faiths and beliefs. We are what we are taught, and sadly much of what is taught is untrue.
Once those packets of uncertainty be they waves or particles, theories or faiths, measurements or judgements of probability or fairness are removed from the equation, equality or truth, justice and freedom, is All that remains.
Hope this helps you understand.

=

[..nameless..]

"Ok, I undertsnad 'your' truth is "the' truth, do you have a truth about why others can't see it?"

Ok, this is getting testy.
Read my posts. I said "it's ALL True!" That doesn't leave out anyone's unique experience of Reality.
'Seeing Reality from any Perspective is 'seeing' a unique feature of Truth/Reality...

Some are stuck on Planck units and others on other theories and still others on faiths and beliefs. We are what we are taught, and sadly much of what is taught is untrue.

Ah, am I to be dismissed with your 'them'? How intellectually lazy of you. I would expect that more on a religion site. Philosophy is being able to focus on a subject, critically examine it with science being a major factor (all those measurement and Planck thingies) in that examination.

Critical Thinking Mini Lessons
http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

Bertrand Russell on Critical Thinking
http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Educ/EducHare.htm

I disagree with your premise, yes, 'we are what we are taught' (We are everything! It's ALL True!), and sooo much more, for which you neglect to account.

Once those packets of uncertainty be they waves or particles, theories or faiths, measurements or judgements of probability or fairness are removed from the equation, equality or truth, justice and freedom, is All that remains.
Hope this helps you understand.

Isn't that sweet! Here I was trying to answer your questions, trying to 'help you understand'. Sharing and understanding one Perspective to share at a time seems most wise, otherwise it gets messy. It is not a competition.
Not anything can be removed from Reality! Reality is large enough to be ALL inclusive! It even includes your nasty measurements! Yes! Duality is reality also. As are 'measurements/thoughts'!
Ultimately, not anything can be 'removed' from that which is One Reality/Universe! It was that schizophrenic fragmentation of that which is One from which we are presently evolving.
peace

tat tvam asi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

[lancek4]

If the number is not relevant than why is it relevent to you?

Do you think that i just fell from the sky with all this crap? I can scientifically and philosophically support anything that i have to offer here.
I skip to the 'punchline' and some freak out and some are open enough to question.
One point is that a Planck length is the size of a Perspective, a 'Soul', and a planck moment is a unit of Perception, a 'percept'. If you are still bent on 'correcting' some perceived misunderstanding, just link me to it.
Otherwise, 'nuff said.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0126626/ ... iverse.htm
"...known as the Planck time, only 10-43/sec..."

http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org ... ality.html
"And let's ponder that initial inflationary period of the physical universe: the infinitesimal Planck moment, the tiniest moment in physics, 10-43 second—a ..."

It's all over the net.
'Nough said.

So your speaking about The Truth 'out there'? This shortest measurable 'thing'? Huh? Wow. So what does this say of the people of tomorrow, if the soul has been measured? Its solved, is it not? Now I have an absolute dimension of my soul. What are the other dimentions? Is this what they'll talk about?
What is it? I'm very curious. Where do we go from here?