What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Excellent post.


If nothing else and above all other hurdles FEAR STOPS US FROM SEEING THE TRUTH.



Wow...I think we've made it.



I think we have reached the closest literal answer that we can approach.



I thank you all for participating in this incredible thread.


I hope others have been able to grow and perhaps better understand, What's stopping us from seeing the truth? as much as I have over these past 1,000 plus posts upon this worthy subject.




Thank you ALL.




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[lancek4]

I think that the 'truth' has been the whole point of contension Auk. (I'm sure ThaT point has not been lost on you or any of us, reallly, I think.).

So, if the banter of the last few pages here can be any indication of the problem-

What IS stopping us from seeing the Truth?

Selfishness! Humans tend not to be able to just be a sponge and absorb the truth, with no self in the mix. Their egos and such have agendas, thus clouding the vision, that lend distortion in the name of power and wealth, and sometimes just a simple self stroking. We don't want to see the truth as much as we want to be the one to do it. Because ultimately the truth seals our doom. Death is that which we all fear, OK, maybe not actual death but in fact the dying part of it, and don't believe anyone that says otherwise, because it's just so much chest beating, for the benefit of the crowd and thus the self; FEAR!

I concur; fear.
So can we move from here?
Fear is what is stopping us from seein the truth.
Perhaps then, when we attempt to come to a common idea of what Truth is, we find we cannot come to an Absolute agreement because we are being stopped by our individual fears.

So I ask: what is this fear?

Fear of dying? I agree with SOB also: i do not fear death, but I would react from fear for dying.
But, if I may nod to my essay "a philsophy to die for", the idea of death itself may be an issue.

When we proceed to discuss truth we inevitably find that it is a very difficult thing to identify out of reletivity.
We might be moved to say as we look at this process of discussion, which I would propose stems from an Absolute that each of us holds within, of himself but that cannot be expressed adiquately (sp), the means by which we attempt to disclose what this 'feeling' of Absolution is, we are routed by our discourse, by the language we must use in our discussing.

It does not matter what terms I use, in discussion with another, truth will always be relative.

As I proceed to disclose to another what this absolute truth is, this 'feeling' or 'idea' that I have of myself and the world, I become frustrated by the process, because the responses i get from others reveals that what I am attempting to reveal as Absolute Truth is never revealed, or rather, it is always revealed as relative.

I submit for your appraisal that this motion, this attempt, offends me (us; the individual in the attempt). i become frustrated because what seems so clear to me is evidently not clear, or everyone would agree with what I said. Thus, the idea that what i know as Absolute, the truth which is that which informs my Being in the world, my individual identity, my Self --this Truth being obviously not Absolute but relative, offfends me, and thus I get frustrated because the evident discrepancy between my Self and the conveyance of my truth touches upon the possibility that what I know as/of myself is not True, and encounter fear.

This is to suggest that when I argue an Absolute Truth, I am asserting that which is my Being in the world.

so, if we understand human reaction to fear we might glean what could be occuring in our situation.

Fear is always a reaction to the possibility of dying. There is no fear that does not involve dying -- not death, not the state of not existing in this world, but dying, the process or threat upon one's Being.

So, i this so far is sound, then it may be that we are incapable of seeing the Truth between us because we are merely asserting our Absolute Truth at each turn of our discusssion. And, entrenched in our bunkers which defend against the possibility of dying, sheilding ourselves from fear, we are incapable of entertaining thoughts which deny our Truth.

This is to say that as we are approached by such infringing ideas, our Truth absorbs it, appropriates the meaning of the clauses and terms and 'twists' or 'contorts' such meaning into that identity of Truth which is our Self, and thereby maintains the sanctity of our individual Beings, True as they are, identical with the world we know.

The effort which proposes that the above condition is not real, is that effort which proceeds in fear; which is to say, in denial of his own state of fear which is informing how he comes upon reality, the individual thus 'projects' that fear onto and into the world which is really of his own making. Thus, the world is come upon as a hostile place, relfecting the discord which is inherent in the individual in denial, the world is that place of unsurity, violence, and the potential of 'world destruction'; the individual in denial comes upon a world which is destroying itself, and moves out into the world as if to help correct it, but never sees that he is really battleing his own fear, which in denial thereof, is all the more aggrivated and enflamed.

[chaz wyman]

Fear is one thing.
I don't feel scared about the truth - I just don't think there can be such a thing.

But the point is that there really is no such thing as "THE TRUTH".

I mean, what would it look like? True to what, true from what, true about what?
Why would there be such a thing anyway?
Who says that is and what is not "The Truth"?

We all know the answer if 42, the problem has always been what is the Question!!!!!!

[lancek4]

Fear is one thing.
I don't feel scared about the truth - I just don't think there can be such a thing.

But the point is that there really is no such thing as "THE TRUTH".

I mean, what would it look like? True to what, true from what, true about what?
Why would there be such a thing anyway?
Who says that is and what is not "The Truth"?

We all know the answer if 42, the problem has always been what is the Question!!!!!!

Did the dolphins come up with 42? I thot it was 6. Maybe it was 42.

Yet - are not you asserting a Truth in your posts? From where does that come? What is it portraying if not an Truth put out against what might be truth. ?

When you say "thus" is not that asserted as Ab True? Or are you positing what is inherently 'untrue'? Why or how could you assert something that is untruly false?

[lancek4]

Fear is one thing.
I don't feel scared about the truth - I just don't think there can be such a thing.

But the point is that there really is no such thing as "THE TRUTH".

I mean, what would it look like? True to what, true from what, true about what?
Why would there be such a thing anyway?
Who says that is and what is not "The Truth"?

We all know the answer if 42, the problem has always been what is the Question!!!!!!

Did the dolphins come up with 42? I thot it was 6. Maybe it was 42.

Yet - are not you asserting a Truth in your posts? From where does that come? What is it portraying if not an Truth put out against what might be truth. ?

When you say "thus" is not that asserted as Ab True? Or are you positing what is inherently 'untrue'? Why or how could you assert something that is untruly false?

[Arising_uk]

...
We all know the answer if 42, the problem has always been what is the Question!!!!!!

I think I may have an answer to this!! The clue is in Kenneth W. Ford's introduction to his book The World of Elementary Particles, 1963. Although I found it in the reprint by him titled, The Large and the Small, in The World Treasury of Physics, Astronomy and Mathematics. Google book title search

[chaz wyman]

Fear is one thing.
I don't feel scared about the truth - I just don't think there can be such a thing.

But the point is that there really is no such thing as "THE TRUTH".

I mean, what would it look like? True to what, true from what, true about what?
Why would there be such a thing anyway?
Who says that is and what is not "The Truth"?

We all know the answer if 42, the problem has always been what is the Question!!!!!!

Did the dolphins come up with 42? I thot it was 6. Maybe it was 42.

Yet - are not you asserting a Truth in your posts? From where does that come? What is it portraying if not an Truth put out against what might be truth. ?

When you say "thus" is not that asserted as Ab True? Or are you positing what is inherently 'untrue'? Why or how could you assert something that is untruly false?

No the dolphins and the mice were searching for the question.
It was Deepthought that had come up with the answer.


After 50,000 years of getting the wrong answer one day humans will have to conclude that the question was always bullshit: as usefull as "what does blue sound like?" Some questions are just crap.

[Arising_uk]

I think that the 'truth' has been the whole point of contension Auk. (I'm sure ThaT point has not been lost on you or any of us, reallly, I think.).

So, if the banter of the last few pages here can be any indication of the problem-

What IS stopping us from seeing the Truth?

I thought this had been answered already. There IS no THE TRUTH, just truth and falsity. So nothing is stopping us seeing truth but there is no THE TRUTH to be seen. Those who wish this want certainty, an absolute answer, normally I think to replace some lost faith, and you can get this with Logic but it'll tell you nothing about the truth or falsity of the world, only what must and must not ( ) be in it if it exists. So it'll tell you whats certain or necessary, i.e. always true and whats impossible or a contradiction, i.e. always false.

So if someone asks, "What IS stopping us from seeing the Truth?", the only answer is, "What is this truth that you think we are not seeing?", as until then what are we talking about?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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No.

The only answer that would be appropriate is that the one being questioned would answer not in literal words but in a wordless reflection that encompasses the individual's immediate surroundings and himself as an object...thus seeing his truth.



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[Bill Wiltrack]

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...and the opposite is also just as true - or false upon this literal forum and everything in-between.



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[lancek4]

Fear is one thing.
I don't feel scared about the truth - I just don't think there can be such a thing.

But the point is that there really is no such thing as "THE TRUTH".

I mean, what would it look like? True to what, true from what, true about what?
Why would there be such a thing anyway?
Who says that is and what is not "The Truth"?

We all know the answer if 42, the problem has always been what is the Question!!!!!!

Did the dolphins come up with 42? I thot it was 6. Maybe it was 42.

Yet - are not you asserting a Truth in your posts? From where does that come? What is it portraying if not an Truth put out against what might be truth. ?

When you say "thus" is not that asserted as Ab True? Or are you positing what is inherently 'untrue'? Why or how could you assert something that is untruly false?

No the dolphins and the mice were searching for the question.
It was Deepthought that had come up with the answer.


After 50,000 years of getting the wrong answer one day humans will have to conclude that the question was always bullshit: as usefull as "what does blue sound like?" Some questions are just crap.

Ah yes, quite right. On both counts.

But
Maybe the question AnD answer are misphrased.

Perhaps, if I was an alcoholic and my life was going to shit and everyone around me was telling me I need to stop drinking, maybe, if I am trying to stop drinking and failing every time, such that my life contiues to get worse and worse every time I try to stop --
Perhaps my answer is not so much to stop drinking, but moreso, perhaps the question is not so much as how to stop.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us.
~~~ Socrates ~~~




Where there is reverence there is fear, but there is not reverence everywhere that there is fear, because fear presumably has a wider extension than reverence.
~~~ Socrates ~~~




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[Arising_uk]

No.

The only answer that would be appropriate is that the one being questioned would answer not in literal words but in a wordless reflection that encompasses the individual's immediate surroundings and himself as an object...thus seeing his truth.

Is it? Then less of the "us" and "the" and more of the "you" and "your" might be more useful in producing your effect. Maybe, "What is seeing truth to you and are you achieving it?".

[lancek4]

What is it when I look out into the world and understand it all?

And ask questions which answers make sense?

When I read something and understand it in one read when I am let known by others that it is a most challenging piece and they spend much time and effort desiphering it and still only have tenative ideas about it? What is this?

How am I able to procede into life if I have only a 'partial' understanding of Truth?

Would I not be a insecure and clumsy bloke? In fact, would I not ever even procede into life? For there would be gaping holes in reality, blank spots where nothing real appears to me against which I could only fall in confusion.

How could there exist portions of the world that are 'false'? Would not I 'fall' into them? Get sucked into a vortex of nothingness which would negate the possibility of even a 'true' portion?

I have suggested elsewhere in these threads the possibility of individual 'orientation'. Which I see could be similar to AUK 'the' as opposed to 'your' truth.

But again I ask to the forum: how can we procede into the world with some of it 'false'?

The quaestion thus asks of Absolution. The world cannot have some 'false' parts -- which calls to SOBs type of knowledge where 'distortion' exists.

Such a knowledge where some of the known world may be false, denies a part of my self - the individual being in the world.

I propose that such a procession based in such a denial can be explained as I have proposed earlier.
Where there is a holding for an absolutly true object is the individual in at least partial denial of what is True.

Thus we have: an Absolute is that which we must pass over in silence, the coming upon of which necessitates a 'throwing away of the ladder'.

Contradiction is the Indicator of truth; not the negation thereof.

[Mark Question]

Selfishness! Humans tend not to be able to just be a sponge and absorb the truth, with no self in the mix. Their egos and such have agendas, thus clouding the vision, that lend distortion in the name of power and wealth, and sometimes just a simple self stroking. We don't want to see the truth as much as we want to be the one to do it. Because ultimately the truth seals our doom. Death is that which we all fear, OK, maybe not actual death but in fact the dying part of it, and don't believe anyone that says otherwise, because it's just so much chest beating, for the benefit of the crowd and thus the self; FEAR!

are you human too and is your agenda to be the one to do "truth" what "universe" already is also to you, all that exists? are you writing your own lexicons? or have you just some more or less hidden agenda to promote some eastern religion with fear and aphilosophy? is the real subject What's stopping us from seeing the light? Wow...I think we've made it.