The Big Bang is Busted

[Typist]

If I may, I'd like to suggest a few things for you to do:

1) Lay off the brown acid, it's bad for you and will cloud your mind.

2) Go get laid and enjoy the very real things in life that we can explain like "wow, that was a great shag and I feel good about life" rather than dwell on things like religion which personally I think is an uphill battle and exercise in futility.

3) Take a few night classes in High School / Entry level science and maths. Your posts might have a little credibility and substance behind them if you appear to know even a juvenile level of what people are debating here.

Stay cool folks, keep up the discussion.

Good advice! Especially #2! Is inadequate sex the fundamental problem underlying all great philosophical debates?

[Arising_uk]

... An armchair doesn't compete with radio telescopes and particle accelerators when it comes to matters of fact about the physical universe.

Hmm...but radio telescopes and particle accelerators came from the armchair physicists?

[Godfree]

Good advice! Especially #2! Is inadequate sex the fundamental problem underlying all great philosophical debates? [/quote]
Typist , long time no post , hows things ,
we could expand on what adequate or inadequate sex is ,???
and if this assumption was correct ,
would that make Hugh Hefner a great philosopher ,
I tend to think ones energy goes into one or the other ,
nerds don't spend all day drooling over sexual concepts ,
they are far too busy with gadgets and games and books .
I think the desire to be recognized is universal ,
if one can get recognition from a breast implant or ,
just having a really big penis ,
there isn't much motive to impress with ones intellect .
There are plenty of sites for dating or showing ones sexual bits ,
but this is a philosophy site ,
and I come here to engage brains ,
are there any out there???

[SpheresOfBalance]

Sob , I ask for your best guess ,
READ, I said 'one theory'
and this is what your comeback is ,??
Comeback???
you seem to be almost sheepishly putting this forward like it's not your best guess or most probable , but a remote possibility,
All mankind's ideas are merely possibilities.
if you want to imagine peoples brains or spirits flying around in the electro magnetic electrickery ,
Your reducing what I said, does not reduce what I said.
it's a old idea with many variations ,
Age matters not, and I suggest there are many permutations.
but only the religious would put such nonsense forward as their best guess .
Yes, that is what you believe.
we may use electricity in our brain , but we have a cpu , powered up by living tissue , a power station that is required to retain the knowledge , just like a computer when the battery goes flat the info is lost.
And your proof is...???
So I pressume this electrickery is infinite ,,???
It would seem that "it's just Love and Miracles out of Nowhere." I could sing it to you!
like god it always was ,???
I fucking hate GOD! I speak of the creator, a totally different thing.

Did you notice that I didn't make fun of your "Big Picture." Is that why you wanted to hear one of mine? So you could make fun of me/it. I think that says a lot about both of us, don't you?

My Friend?????????????????????????

Happy Thanksgiving!

PEACE, go out to all the life in the Universe, PEACE my friends!

[Godfree]

Did you notice that I didn't make fun of your "Big Picture." Is that why you wanted to hear one of mine? So you could make fun of me/it. I think that says a lot about both of us, don't you?

My Friend?????????????????????????

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm not looking for people to "make fun of"
I'm looking for like minded people who can grasp what I'm talking about , I'm working real hard to find any like minds , I keep expressing my views in the hope I will find a like mind or two .
Somebody who like me can understand the bigger picture and draw logical conclusions about what we know .
I find it incredible how many don't even understand infinity ,
just grasping that changes everything .
If infinity is reality ,"and I don't believe there is another possibility"
then the bbt is wrong , creation is wrong ,
there are lots of possibilities , but you can't have them all in some random mix,
many exclude others .
If evolution is real ,regarded as fact by many ,
then creation is crap , etc ,
we can go on to show many either or either , not both ,
so I'm working hard here to explain , infinite means , no bbt

[SpheresOfBalance]

Did you notice that I didn't make fun of your "Big Picture." Is that why you wanted to hear one of mine? So you could make fun of me/it. I think that says a lot about both of us, don't you?

My Friend?????????????????????????

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm not looking for people to "make fun of"
But that's what you did.
I'm looking for like minded people who can grasp what I'm talking about
I think that most grasp it. It's just that it's a simplistic view, and that it doesn't answer a lot of questions. And without proofs it's just so much guesswork. Which is fine, everybody has their own version of reality; You're allowed. But if you're looking for someone to buy into your theories, hook, line and sinker, good luck!
, I'm working real hard to find any like minds , I keep expressing my views in the hope I will find a like mind or two .
Somebody who like me can understand the bigger picture and draw logical conclusions about what we know .
I find it incredible how many don't even understand infinity ,
just grasping that changes everything .
If infinity is reality ,"and I don't believe there is another possibility"
then the bbt is wrong , creation is wrong ,
there are lots of possibilities , but you can't have them all in some random mix,
many exclude others .
If evolution is real ,regarded as fact by many ,
then creation is crap , etc ,
we can go on to show many either or either , not both ,
so I'm working hard here to explain , infinite means , no bbt
Since you're so certain, write a book and have it published; set everyone straight.

[Godfree]

Since you're so certain, write a book and have it published; set everyone straight. [/quote][/quote]
I am writing a book , just what I'v posted here on PN would make for interesting reading , and I'v done this many times before on many other sites .Last time I checked I still had one on Plentoffish , Big/little bang , are we being decieved, ?
and it is huge I can't post anymore cos I'v done my 100 , their limit .
You seem to think that people who write books are some how more credible???
Why are my opinions less credible here as a post than they would be in the old format of a book .
This is the modern writers outlet .
Bloggers are being used as experts in the media these days .
I think you sell yourself , and me , too cheap , you have too little faith in the importance of your own thinking ,
are you not equal , is your word not as valid as the next mans,
The challenge here surely is to go where no one has gone before,
to express new ideas , it's up to us to come up with a new understanding ,
to take mans thinking forward , instead of being stuck in this submissive position of assuming your not qualified to judge ,!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Since you're so certain, write a book and have it published; set everyone straight.

[/quote]
I am writing a book , just what I'v posted here on PN would make for interesting reading , and I'v done this many times before on many other sites .Last time I checked I still had one on Plentoffish , Big/little bang , are we being decieved, ?
and it is huge I can't post anymore cos I'v done my 100 , their limit .
You seem to think that people who write books are some how more credible???
That's not what I meant at all.
Why are my opinions less credible here as a post than they would be in the old format of a book .
This is the modern writers outlet .
Bloggers are being used as experts in the media these days .
I think you sell yourself , and me , too cheap , you have too little faith in the importance of your own thinking ,
are you not equal , is your word not as valid as the next mans,
The challenge here surely is to go where no one has gone before,
to express new ideas , it's up to us to come up with a new understanding ,
to take mans thinking forward , instead of being stuck in this submissive position of assuming your not qualified to judge ,!!![/quote]

[keithprosser2]

instead of being stuck in this submissive position of assuming your not qualified to judge

At least in my case it's not submissive - it's realistic. Anyone on AF who is a real expert in something (computing, economics, nutrition etc etc) will know that to be really on top of a subject takes a lot of hard work. I don't know much about the Big Bang, but at least I know that I know next to bugger all about the big bang. I hear enough ill-informed rubbish spouted by laymen about my speciality to know how amateurish and ill-informed I would appear if I were to discuss the big bang with a 'real' expert in the field.

I can't actually calculate the temperature of a black hole of a given mass. Or the amount of Hawking radiation they emit. Perhaps I could learn, but having glanced at the odd proper textbook on quantum physics (as opposed to the kindergarten version in popular science mags), I am not quite sure I could - even though I did maths courses thoughout my time as an undergraduate. Real physics is bloody hard!

Why do cranks seem to always concentrate on big issues, like black holes and the quantisation of n-dimensional spacetime? Why don't they ever have radical new theories about boring things, like viscosity, or surface tension?

[Arising_uk]

...
Why do cranks seem to always concentrate on big issues, like black holes and the quantisation of n-dimensional spacetime? Why don't they ever have radical new theories about boring things, like viscosity, or surface tension?

I think it because of the cultural reuse of terms and concepts or the metaphors from science due to the science thoughts having a social and political aspect, or some such. Theres also still the issue of science having the inconvenient role of disproving, by accident, the old creation myths. I think it also because science itself has no good language model it can make of the things it is currently investigating, the maths works and the experiments prove it but the theory is still slightly awry. Theres also the issue of when you give up truth and only find probable truth that the absolute truth kooks can get in. My two-bob anyway.

[Godfree]

...
Why do cranks seem to always concentrate on big issues, like black holes and the quantisation of n-dimensional spacetime? Why don't they ever have radical new theories about boring things, like viscosity, or surface tension?

I
,
a lot of these ideas are not new ,
I discussed the bbt and infinity etc with my dad 45 years ago ,
over my life I have seen numerous documentaries , on that and lots of other great topics such as evolution and ice ages etc .
I don't have to claim to have studied something to be qualified to express an opinion .
I have certainly talked to and seen what the qualified people have to say on these subjects .
When we are talking infinity , you don't need maths or an electron microscope ,a radio telescope or any other aid ,
all you need is a brain , and a grasp of logic .
I have yet to hear from anyone expert or not ,
a credible or believable explanation of what a finite universe is ,
and how big , or whats outside this finite universe .
you can have a string of degrees a mile long and if you tell me our universe is finite , I will tell you " you don't know what your talking about"

[Godfree]

The size of the known universe ,
now claimed to be 156 billion light year diameter ,
78 billion light years to the outer edge ,
and this matter got there in 13.7 billion years , thats on average 5 or 6 times the speed of light ,???
the universe does not seem to be sticking to Einsteins cosmic speed limit

[SpheresOfBalance]

The size of the known universe ,
now claimed to be 156 billion light year diameter ,
78 billion light years to the outer edge ,
and this matter got there in 13.7 billion years , thats on average 5 or 6 times the speed of light ,???
the universe does not seem to be sticking to Einsteins cosmic speed limit

The question is, which is incorrect?

A) 156 billion light year diameter?
,
B) 13.7 billion years?
,
C) Einsteins cosmic speed limit?
,
D) Some of the above?
,
E) All of the above?
, or
F) None of the above?

While I'm sure you'll have your favorite, others will have others!

[Arising_uk]

The size of the known universe ,
now claimed to be 156 billion light year diameter ,
78 billion light years to the outer edge ,
and this matter got there in 13.7 billion years , thats on average 5 or 6 times the speed of light ,???
the universe does not seem to be sticking to Einsteins cosmic speed limit

Funnily enough a model from one of our more original phil of science posters, Cerveny, has a picture to explain this, the track of the 'particles' are flaw-lines in whatever it is the 'Universe' is 'congealing' from. So 'absolute' space has already happened, the 'distance' has already been covered, everything we understand as space and matter is the phase-space boundary where whatever 'substance' it is, is transforming through I presume an entropic process into a different state, a fixed 'solid' so to speak, the 'past'. The 'future' is the 'unordered' state. Everything is 'shrinking'!? Not acceleration but receding!?

Not sure is this is real but http://www.universetoday.com/33752/devi ... han-light/

I also think that instead of challenging Einstein it would be better to think about light, it travels slower in different mediums, so something may be slowing or speeding our measurements that we've not yet realised. Its a big Universe. Me, I'll leave the Astrophysicists to it I think.

That the church can come to an accommodation with a scientific theory is fine with me as its been the history between the church and physics for a while now. Now Biology on the other hand had not been much of a bother to the churches but thats changed with it now actually becoming a science, or more pointedly, have an Engineering wing(I know! I know! Quiet down you Chemists, I feel your pain as to what is happening to your subject in the UK, but we got slaughtered well first and I didn't see you coming out). Its challenging the compromise that the church came to with the astrophysicists about what exactly 'God' has his 'eye' on.

[Godfree]

Arising UK ,,
What I'm hearing from you is that I should stop challenging ,
and accept what I'm told ,???
that maybe the info is correct but I'm just too stupid or uninformed to see that ,
I keep trying to make points and the response is ,
are you sure you understand their answer , learn more about them ,
but your not learning more about what I'm saying , or you would be drawing the same conclusions ,
"they expected to see young galaxies at the outer edge of our view , they were surprised to see old galaxies ."
this does not fit the story of the bb .
they have got a major spanner in the works ,
but most seem to be pointing their blind eye ,!!!