aphilosophy

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chaz wyman
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by chaz wyman »

lancek4 wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
lancek4 wrote:What offends in that there may be no reality beyond thought?
All reality has to reside in our perception of it. As our perception is moderated by thought it seem odd to suggest that there can be anything meaningful to a conception of reality beyond our ability to conceive of it.
Yes. That was for Typists polemic.

But on second thought: is thought different that perception?
Yes, different as sound is from hearing, or fire is to burning.
But perception is wholly dependant on the thought of it.
Reality is a construction of the mind, perception is the source of its building blocks.
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

chaz wyman wrote:
lancek4 wrote:]What offends in that there may be no reality beyond thought?
All reality has to reside in our perception of it.

But on second thought: is thought different that perception?
Yes, different as sound is from hearing, or fire is to burning.
But perception is wholly dependant on the thought of it.
Reality is a construction of the mind, perception is the source of its building blocks.[/quote]




all right! Now we seem to be getting somewhere.

The building blocks of reality are soursed from perception
And perception is dependant upon the thought of perception , I guess in a sort or redundancy.

Which is more substantial, thought or perception?
Does thought and perception constitute conception?
chaz wyman
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by chaz wyman »

lancek4 wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
lancek4 wrote:]What offends in that there may be no reality beyond thought?
All reality has to reside in our perception of it.

But on second thought: is thought different that perception?
Yes, different as sound is from hearing, or fire is to burning.
But perception is wholly dependant on the thought of it.
Reality is a construction of the mind, perception is the source of its building blocks.



all right! Now we seem to be getting somewhere.

The building blocks of reality are soursed from perception
And perception is dependant upon the thought of perception , I guess in a sort or redundancy.

Which is more substantial, thought or perception?
Does thought and perception constitute conception?
[/quote]

I think there is a seemless connectivity between the perception and the thought of the perceived.
Thought and perception may constitute conception. But I think that conception is also a stage further.
One can conceive of a thing which is not an object of direct perception but a consequence of it.
One can even conceive the impossible, imaginary or fantastic.
But reality can only be the closely conceived thought of perception.
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

... But there is a certain redundancy, do you agree? Or no?
Thought?

I conceed that thoughts may derive from the object in ways that can belie the object, such that no object may be seen to have initiated the thought.

In our minds is there perception before conception and then out of this 'mental state' thoughts are formed from which we formulate terms (language) ? This would seem logical, but I'm sure even in this, it. Seems you have already admitted, thoughts then beg the question of this progression.

How do you see language fitting here?

How does determinism fit?
chaz wyman
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by chaz wyman »

lancek4 wrote:... But there is a certain redundancy, do you agree? Or no?
Thought?

You mean between thought and perception?
Yes, but not exclusively. You can still have thoughts with your ears plugged in the dark in a sensory depravation chamber.
In fact your thoughts are uninterrupted.

I conceed that thoughts may derive from the object in ways that can belie the object, such that no object may be seen to have initiated the thought.
Is it possible that a person that looses most of his senses will think less? I think the answer is ;on the contrary.
In our minds is there perception before conception and then out of this 'mental state' thoughts are formed from which we formulate terms (language) ? This would seem logical, but I'm sure even in this, it. Seems you have already admitted, thoughts then beg the question of this progression.

How do you see language fitting here?

Ask Wittgenstein! He says the limits of language are the limits of our conception. He is wrong.

How does determinism fit?

It fits with everything.


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Arising_uk
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by Arising_uk »

chaz wyman wrote:
Ask Wittgenstein! He says the limits of language are the limits of our conception. He is wrong.
Not quite I think, he says language is the limit of the expression of our thoughts. Is this what you mean by "conception"?

"...Thus the aim of the book is to draw a limit to thought, or rather--not to thought, but to the expression of thoughts: for in order to be able to draw a limit to thought, we should have to find both sides of the limit thinkable (i.e. we should have to be able to think what cannot be thought). It will therefore only be in language that the limit can be drawn, and what lies on the other side of the limit will simply be nonsense. ..." TLP - Preface.

Typist should read this I think.
chaz wyman
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by chaz wyman »

Arising_uk wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
Ask Wittgenstein! He says the limits of language are the limits of our conception. He is wrong.
Not quite I think, he says language is the limit of the expression of our thoughts. Is this what you mean by "conception"?

"...Thus the aim of the book is to draw a limit to thought, or rather--not to thought, but to the expression of thoughts: for in order to be able to draw a limit to thought, we should have to find both sides of the limit thinkable (i.e. we should have to be able to think what cannot be thought). It will therefore only be in language that the limit can be drawn, and what lies on the other side of the limit will simply be nonsense. ..." TLP - Preface.

Typist should read this I think.
I don't think Typist would agree or have to agree.
Wittgenstein is wrong for the same reason aphilosophy is unthinkable and undoable.
It is true that there is more the thinking than language, and there is more to Being that having a language. Ask any higher mammal whose life and being far exceed the extreme limits of their language. But this means that to do aphilosphy one has to act and think like an animal, and that can never the the goal or achievement of any human.
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

chaz wyman wrote:
lancek4 wrote:... But there is a certain redundancy, do you agree? Or no?
Thought?

You mean between thought and perception?
Yes, but not exclusively. You can still have thoughts with your ears plugged in the dark in a sensory depravation chamber.
In fact your thoughts are uninterrupted.

I conceed that thoughts may derive from the object in ways that can belie the object, such that no object may be seen to have initiated the thought.
Is it possible that a person that looses most of his senses will think less? I think the answer is ;on the contrary.
In our minds is there perception before conception and then out of this 'mental state' thoughts are formed from which we formulate terms (language) ? This would seem logical, but I'm sure even in this, it. Seems you have already admitted, thoughts then beg the question of this progression.

How do you see language fitting here?

Ask Wittgenstein! He says the limits of language are the limits of our conception. He is wrong.

How does determinism fit?

It fits with everything.




///////////
What is the limit of reality? Is there a limit?

How may there be a thing independant of our thought about it? How might there be perception or concpetion aside from thought?
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

Arising_uk wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
Ask Wittgenstein! He says the limits of language are the limits of our conception. He is wrong.
Not quite I think, he says language is the limit of the expression of our thoughts. Is this what you mean by "conception"?

"...Thus the aim of the book is to draw a limit to thought, or rather--not to thought, but to the expression of thoughts: for in order to be able to draw a limit to thought, we should have to find both sides of the limit thinkable (i.e. we should have to be able to think what cannot be thought). It will therefore only be in language that the limit can be drawn, and what lies on the other side of the limit will simply be nonsense. ..." TLP - Preface.

(L4 start here- )
...And what is non-sense? That which is not expressed in language. If there is something beyond langaguge it must be passed over as a topic of discussion.
But what happens when this is our limit. ?
Esotercism: developing a priveledged shceme of terms impregnated with enfolding definition, the definitions of which become assumed? Is this then the basis, as come upon outside this priveledge, a metaphysics?
chaz wyman
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by chaz wyman »

lancek4 wrote:
Arising_uk wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
Ask Wittgenstein! He says the limits of language are the limits of our conception. He is wrong.
Not quite I think, he says language is the limit of the expression of our thoughts. Is this what you mean by "conception"?

"...Thus the aim of the book is to draw a limit to thought, or rather--not to thought, but to the expression of thoughts: for in order to be able to draw a limit to thought, we should have to find both sides of the limit thinkable (i.e. we should have to be able to think what cannot be thought). It will therefore only be in language that the limit can be drawn, and what lies on the other side of the limit will simply be nonsense. ..." TLP - Preface.

(L4 start here- )
...And what is non-sense? That which is not expressed in language. If there is something beyond langaguge it must be passed over as a topic of discussion.
But what happens when this is our limit. ?
Esotercism: developing a priveledged shceme of terms impregnated with enfolding definition, the definitions of which become assumed? Is this then the basis, as come upon outside this priveledge, a metaphysics?
Am I correct in thinking TLP was not originally in English? I wonder if the word 'nonsense' was something more conducive to the argument, as in everyday speech it is perfectly possible to express nonsensical things within the limits of language.
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

Indeed, "in the beginning.." (..god created..) As english transcribed from the original hebrew or greek or whatever is supposed to mean something different than a set point called 'the beginning'.
chaz wyman
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by chaz wyman »

lancek4 wrote:Indeed, "in the beginning.." (..god created..) As english transcribed from the original hebrew or greek or whatever is supposed to mean something different than a set point called 'the beginning'.
I can't speak for Biblical hermeneutics, but the world "nonsense" may not be so clear cut.
We might take it literally as in beyond the senses. Or we might say gibberish, like Scrunge futtocks!
impossible like; dark light, or square circle.
Or it might mean illogical.
evangelicalhumanist
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by evangelicalhumanist »

chaz wyman wrote:
lancek4 wrote:Indeed, "in the beginning.." (..god created..) As english transcribed from the original hebrew or greek or whatever is supposed to mean something different than a set point called 'the beginning'.
I can't speak for Biblical hermeneutics, but the world "nonsense" may not be so clear cut.
We might take it literally as in beyond the senses. Or we might say gibberish, like Scrunge futtocks!
impossible like; dark light, or square circle.
Or it might mean illogical.
Well, really though, doesn't the suggestion that there is a god involved suggest that there was a beginning before "the beginning?" It has always seemed an impossible thing to me to suggest an eternal, changeless deity that suddenly decides (i.e. "changes" it's mind) and brings about (as Typist might put it) "the most massive change in the history of the world!"

The very fact that we have to assume that (a) nothing exists without cause, and (b) God needs no cause, tells us that we still don't understand something important. That's no shame -- it's a big universe, we're doing our best, but haven't learned everything yet. But in the face of not having an answer to throw up a notion that involves more unlikely complexity than mere existence seems gratuitous at best.

Because "square circle" is exactly the same sort of thing as "causeless cause."
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

It is my understanding that the Hebrew or Greek term that was translated into English as "in the beginning" meant more something like "there was this universe that has been existing and here is where we will start our story".
lancek4
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Re: aphilosophy

Post by lancek4 »

chaz wyman wrote:.
Wittgenstein is wrong for the same reason aphilosophy is unthinkable and undoable.
It is true that there is more the thinking than language, and there is more to Being that having a language. Ask any higher mammal whose life and being far exceed the extreme limits of their language. It is the example of the priveledge of human intelligence to proclaim what Being or lanaguage is for another animal. This statement can only be applied in reference to the presumtiveness that is human perception: that humans are a 'higher' species, and this means that our consciousness has, likwise as our 'higherness that other animals' or any hierachry of animals, progressed with reference to what we may come upon in the evidence of our history and history in general.

But this means that to do aphilosphy one has to act and think like an animal, and that can never the the goal or achievement of any human. I am not totally following your reasoning in this paragraph here.
Indeed there may be more to Being than having a lanaguage. But we do have lanaguage, as you have said before I think, we would not be human without it. So it seems nonsequiter to suggest that Being is somehow 'larger' or 'greater' of 'more than' language. To be human is exactly to have this particular human-ability we call lanaguage -- it is difficult even to express the inherent relation.

This is what I mean when I have said that people tend to move into an arguement as it suits thier purpose and then to pull back as it suit what they want to argue, all under a guise of consistency of argument. One cannot say that the object is the the sublination of the Notion of the subject, argue that there is not progress of consciousness, and then rely upon some higher and lower creatures as if to draw a picture of some larger reality that language does not encompass. This last you are saying as much as Typist, but you argue against what he says.

There is a hint of inconsistency in such proposals taken together, and against this kind of inconsistency, one that hides behind a viel of consistency, that causes me to appreciate the consistency of Bill and Typist's inconsistency, because these two at least are coming to us 'whole' in thier assertions.

This former consistency, that is inconsistent in its nature, paints for me a picture; it evidences an individual who knows particularized arguments to make on cues, who knows, say, which moves to make given the situation of the game board, an individual who is merely playing with argument, who really has no consistent understanding but knows how to divert attention from his subject, and in this method lay his consistency. But he is inconsistent within himself.

He is like a classically trained muscian; one can easily tell this person when one hears him or her. He can play written music beautifully, knows which vibrato to use according to the nationality of the composer, knows how to shape the contours of crecendo and decrecendo and phrasing due to the number of pieces he has played and the direction he has been placed under. He knows how to play the music the way it was meant by the composer and knows how he should sound if he is to be considered a virtuoso. He also has become so adept that he can take liberties within the music; he can use French vibrato with Hayden, an Austrian composer. He can chop phrasings or string them out; he can use staccato where legato was written. This he calls improvisation, and it can be beautiful to hear, but it is really a gestalt of learned methods, devied up and reassembled. His consistency is that he has no real ability to improvise, to draw out of himself the music of his soul, for his soul has been compromised my the lesson he was taught, and so eagerly learned such that he might one day find himself in the music. He is Salieri.

But this virtuoso has been decieved, and he feels it, he knows it too late. So he draws the veil of his learning about him so that no one may see his fraud; his deception that he was trained to procure.

This is contrasted to the true improvisationalist, and this musician was a natural. His learning coincided with his training, such that his art was merely blossoming as he attended his lessons. He is Mozart. He writes music that imitates his mentors but never repeats them. He plays when inspires him before he was taught what should be played, and then becomes the opus of a style, as his interpretation did not repeat nor derive. But his derivations were his own; everyone can hear this in his music.
He is consistent in that he is true to himself as he was not tought through the examples of other's triuphs and mistakes, such that he learned how to construct the argument, but the arguments were apparent to him. Thus he is honest, and his exposure is his wholeness.

If there is a Being that is something of language but is also something other than lanaguage, the only way we might know this is through the language itself. Even if I might think in myself that I have some aspect of myself that is not language then it is merely a feeling, and this feeling, though it may be human of itself, it does nothing within the human being (within myself) to situate it (me) as human except as much as such a feeling finds language. I cannot hold an idea that there is something other than lanaguage to situate myself, to allow me to BE, without relying upon language itself. I cannot determine that there may be lower ot higher animals in thier Being except through human language.

the significance of these postures, the consistent and inconsistent, is that one cannot be nailed down against the particular other, and that the arguement to what may be refered is always in question. Only Mozart knows he is Mozart, everyone else just knows what they hear. Salieri likewise reflects upon himself such that there is Mozart, and so he feels his Salieri, and asserts and asserts. Yet the veil is also hideen from view, such that only those who know, see.

So it is that I do not follow your reasoning: that Wittgestien is wrong in the same way Typist is wrong.
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