Philosophers on the Beach

[chaz wyman]

I think Marx was famous because of his name rather than for his ideas. It's a catchy name. Had he lived a little longer he could have had a beach party with his name sakes, the Marx Brothers. Imagine the antics those guys would have gotten into.

Three thinkers had more effect on the 20thC, than any other three thinkers had on any century that followed thier writings; one was Darwin, the other was Freud, and Marx was last but certainly not least.

[zorro]

Arising: "Marx was hardly flush."

It is amazing the money this man burned through and wasted.

[chaz wyman]

Arising: "Marx was hardly flush."

It is amazing the money this man burned through and wasted.

Ignorance upon ignorance

[zorro]

Let's imagine this beach scene in the 21st century. Marx would be flying over the beach dropping leaflets, announcing that the King of Saudi Arabia had just granted the women of his kingdom the vote and the right to stand for elections. All four philosophers were gobsmacked.

Kant, being a Prussian, would fine this totally unacceptable. Women should know their place. Schopenhauer would be skeptical and think it would never work and end in nothing good. Nietzsche would be the most disturbed about it. He disdained democracy and especially the vote for women. Where were the supermen of the world he'd ask?

Hegel was the hardest to read on the matter. He needed more time to think about it. But over all I think he thought it a positive move.

Along with this announcement Marx also dropped some bingo cards.

[zorro]

Hey, this gave me an idea for the cover of a possible upcoming issue on Marx in PN magazine. It would feature an oversized head of Marx (which he had) sticking out of a small plane, dropping issues of "Das Kapital" and "The Communism Manifesto" on the beach and the world.

Let's say Marx landed his plane on the beach where the other four philosophers were. Them he tries to take off but is stuck in the sand. His being stuck in the sand represents and is symbolic of his philosophy that never really gotten off the ground.

[Arising_uk]

It is amazing the money this man burned through and wasted.

When? Don't tell me, whilst spending it all in the British Library reading room.

[chaz wyman]

It is amazing the money this man burned through and wasted.

When? Don't tell me, whilst spending it all in the British Library reading room.

Yeah - it was all those cheese sandwiches and tea he consumed whilst writing Das Kapital

[spike]

A Chaz quote: "Materialism and Idealism are not incompatible anyway."

Nevertheless, they are opposite ends of the philosophic spectrum. And they can be as incompatible as men and women or the positive and negative poles of electricity. But those opposites can reconcile their differences and learn to cohabit.

[chaz wyman]

A Chaz quote: "Materialism and Idealism are not incompatible anyway."

Nevertheless, they are opposite ends of the philosophic spectrum. And they can be as incompatible as men and women or the positive and negative poles of electricity. But those opposites can reconcile their differences and learn to cohabit.

This is true for kindergarden philosophy.
But many of the great Idealist philosophers showed no antithetical approach to materialism.
I would include Marx and Kant here.

[spike]

"Materialism requires the coexistence, conflict and contribution of its idealist antagonist in order to elicit its own full potential and acquire a comprehensive application."

The opposite is true also.

[spike]

Idealism is basically the idea that the external world exists in the mind. Materialism is basically the idea that the world does exists externally.

I would call that a basic conflict of believes.

[spike]

When it comes to dialectical idealism and dialectical materialism one sees the difference between two philosophies much clearer.

[chaz wyman]

"Materialism requires the coexistence, conflict and contribution of its idealist antagonist in order to elicit its own full potential and acquire a comprehensive application."

The opposite is true also.

The opposite of Idealism, if you need one to caricature philosophy is REALISM, not materialism.

Where did you get the quote?

But no philosopher can be so easily pigeon holed into a single word. None of the these labels is adequate.
"Every affirmation is a negation."
Adorno

[chaz wyman]

When it comes to dialectical idealism and dialectical materialism one sees the difference between two philosophies much clearer.

...materialist idealism, and materialist realism exist also.
You can go on adding words together ad infinitem because you can accept the basic finding of idealism and materialism without conflict.

Idealism is about the way we understand the world , not about how the world is structured. Kant was quite clear that the world was made of matter, but merely pointed out that we do not conceive of it directly.
His idealism meant he focused on the means by which we sense and interpret the world, without denying its basic solid reality.
THese label are hopeless caricatures, not perfect Platonic Forms.
90% of mistakes on this forum are based on a confusion of the sign and its object. We end up arguing about words, and saying nothing about philosophical thinking.

Here Kant defines what he means by "Idealist" - it is an assertion of his materialism.

"We are perfectly justified in maintaining that only what is within ourselves can be immediately and directly perceived, and that only my own existence can be the object of a mere perception. Thus the existence of a real object outside me can never be given immediately and directly in perception, but can only be added in thought to the perception, which is a modification of the internal sense, and thus inferred as its external cause … . In the true sense of the word, therefore, I can never perceive external things, but I can only infer their existence from my own internal perception, regarding the perception as an effect of something external that must be the proximate cause … . It must not be supposed, therefore, that an idealist is someone who denies the existence of external objects of the senses; all he does is to deny that they are known by immediate and direct perception … . "
—Critique of Pure Reason, A367 f.

QED Materialism and Idealism are compatible.

Most people who think themselves Idealist agree despite the injury done to the theory by the unstable Hegal.

[Rortabend]

The opposite of Idealism, if you need one to caricature philosophy is REALISM, not materialism.

But the opposite of realism is antirealism!