What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

[lancek4]

What my point has been from the very beginning is that Truth simply is. You cannot possibly disprove truth. Truth never changes and is exactly the same for everyone despite their knowledge. The truth begets reality. It exists without humans whatsoever. Truth is the aim of all human pursuits in knowledge, however we have only found some of the truths that exist. Once verified, truths yield facts, such that all facts are truths, however not all truths are facts.

I would think that it's obvious by now, that I lean towards the correspondence school of thought. However I am not necessarily tied to any particular theory.

For instance, it has always been the truth that a live, healthy, human body has an endoskeleton, is made up primarily of H2O and that H2O is the formula for water. Today these are facts, however there was a time when they were mere belief, and prior to that, they were unrecognized altogether. In all that time however, they were truths.

What I call the universal truth, is what Physicists, Cosmologists, Astronomers, Philosophers as well as others will be able to see once "the theory of everything" is verified as fact. It could also be called the ultimate truth, because it incorporates all the other truths.

The really sad fact is that unfortunately all humans have, do or will, lie in the face of truth!

Sounds to me like you are saying Truth Is because we have a term for truth, which is little better than saying we have a term "God" and so God must exist.
Kinda weak there.
I am not arguing that kind of truth. To say "Truth Is" as a counter position to "there is no Truth" is really saying the same thing. It is saying that all is relative expept when it is not - - which is not very productive.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I snipped my bit because of the 3 max nested quote limitation. However it's easy to understand the chain because your text below is still attached to my original.

Sounds to me like you are saying Truth Is because we have a term for truth, which is little better than saying we have a term "God" and so God must exist.
Kinda weak there.
I am not arguing that kind of truth. To say "Truth Is" as a counter position to "there is no Truth" is really saying the same thing. It is saying that all is relative expept when it is not - - which is not very productive.

That's not what I'm saying.

It sounds to me like you're trying to suck me into the "chicken or the egg" paradox which in fact is not a paradox at all. Obviously they both were developed simultaneously starting with chemicals that allowed for the first DNA/RNA strands. The DNA being the chicken and the RNA being the egg. This, process came into being in the beginning or there would have never been a second generation of the first bit of life on the planet. And of course evolution continued the trend.

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth. There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

The following is a dramatization and doesn't necessarily have any basis in actual truthful events to the best of my knowledge.

Lets go back to Ogg and Throg sitting around the campfire under the starlight in their mammoth skin loincloths while mogg was laying down in the cave. No truths were known to any of them as such, even though there were already billions that existed, some of which, they dealt with every day. No expression of truth whatsoever. Ogg lifts his right leg and cuts a big one, such that it explosively bursts into flames because of his proximity to the campfire catching his loin cloth on fire, so he lets out a grunt and starts running around like a chicken with its head cut off and disappears into the woods. Meanwhile Throg starts rolling on the ground laughing his head off. Mogg hears the ruckus and exits the cave and goes uuhhhh! that means what? Throg goes Ogg blurrrpp um ferrrr! that means Ogg fart on fire. Mogg goes naanana? that means no? Throg goes uuuuthhhh that means truth, of course Mogg's never heard that before so Throgg has to spend the next year explaining the concept. Truth is born! In the following millennia we find millions more, including those that we are not the originators of. Like the truth that the earth is not flat but somewhat spherical. And that you cannot necessarily find the west indies by sailing in that direction for a very long time, but you can find a new land to conquer., etc, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. That is of course, if we don't kill ourselves off with all that carbon dioxide first!

[chaz wyman]

Or did you say it is pretty because of the nice font color I used?

It's the colour Lance, its the colour.

[chaz wyman]

Sounds to me like you are saying Truth Is because we have a term for truth, which is little better than saying we have a term "God" and so God must exist.
Kinda weak there.
I am not arguing that kind of truth. To say "Truth Is" as a counter position to "there is no Truth" is really saying the same thing. It is saying that all is relative expept when it is not - - which is not very productive.

If you think that then why berate me for saying much the same?

[chaz wyman]

I snipped my bit because of the 3 max nested quote limitation. However it's easy to understand the chain because your text below is still attached to my original.

Sounds to me like you are saying Truth Is because we have a term for truth, which is little better than saying we have a term "God" and so God must exist.
Kinda weak there.
I am not arguing that kind of truth. To say "Truth Is" as a counter position to "there is no Truth" is really saying the same thing. It is saying that all is relative expept when it is not - - which is not very productive.

That's not what I'm saying.

It sounds to me like you're trying to suck me into the "chicken or the egg" paradox which in fact is not a paradox at all. Obviously they both were developed simultaneously starting with chemicals that allowed for the first DNA/RNA strands. The DNA being the chicken and the RNA being the egg. This, process came into being in the beginning or there would have never been a second generation of the first bit of life on the planet. And of course evolution continued the trend.

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth. There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

You won't go back that far because you can't, and nether can the truth.
That is the point. You are stuck in an anthropic fantasy.
The weakness of your argument is your claim that there were 'billions of them." Truth is conceptual, and you need a consciousness to delimit one truth from another. You might as well say that there was one truth as say there was a billion, or none - there is no difference. Without a mind to conceptualise the concept of truth is meaningless.
This fiction that you have made around yourself is the fiction of god.


The following is a dramatization and doesn't necessarily have any basis in actual truthful events to the best of my knowledge.

Lets go back to Ogg and Throg sitting around the campfire under the starlight in their mammoth skin loincloths while mogg was laying down in the cave. No truths were known to any of them as such, even though there were already billions that existed, some of which, they dealt with every day. No expression of truth whatsoever. Ogg lifts his right leg and cuts a big one, such that it explosively bursts into flames because of his proximity to the campfire catching his loin cloth on fire, so he lets out a grunt and starts running around like a chicken with its head cut off and disappears into the woods. Meanwhile Throg starts rolling on the ground laughing his head off. Mogg hears the ruckus and exits the cave and goes uuhhhh! that means what? Throg goes Ogg blurrrpp um ferrrr! that means Ogg fart on fire. Mogg goes naanana? that means no? Throg goes uuuuthhhh that means truth, of course Mogg's never heard that before so Throgg has to spend the next year explaining the concept. Truth is born! In the following millennia we find millions more, including those that we are not the originators of. Like the truth that the earth is not flat but somewhat spherical. And that you cannot necessarily find the west indies by sailing in that direction for a very long time, but you can find a new land to conquer., etc, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. That is of course, if we don't kill ourselves off with all that carbon dioxide first!

[chaz wyman]

............................................

.

This is a Fiction Bill.

Maybe you confusing fact with fiction is why you cannot see the truth?

[lancek4]

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth. There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

you are saying that there has always been a Truth even though Throg and Glag didnt know of it. and you are also saying that Truth are the things we know.
So which one are you arguing?
If there is a Truth that we do not know, then there is a Truth
If there is only the Truth we know, then likewise there is Truth.
To say "Truth Is" rides the fence.

Is not our knowledge of the former Truth (under all things before our knwoeldge of it) yet knowledge of Truth?
How could we have a True knowledge that lacks? Are you saying then that Truth is really False?
Then how do we have a Truth? Oh: all is relative. Ahh, everything is relative and based upon a shifting point of perspective.
Uh, well isnt This True knowledge also?
But wait !, There is an underlying truth that we have not come upon yet. Yes, this is True. But wait.. no.. I mean..

What can be false?
Oh yeah, we reduce everthing to relativity, and this knowledge of reality is true, it is an underlying Truth. But , wait. Ummm..truth is relative... I mean, there is an absolute Truth.

Uhhhh... What?

Oh yeah, there are atoms and.. uhhh.
Uuummm.

Ok. what is stopping us from seeing the truth?
Hmmmm.

[lancek4]

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth.
(my font color bar is not there!!!)) -- Oh so, there is an essential referent that grants us truth.


There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

you are saying that there has always been a Truth even though Throg and Glag didnt know of it. and you are also saying that Truth are the things we know.
So which one are you arguing?
If there is a Truth that we do not know, then there is a Truth
If there is only the Truth we know, then likewise there is Truth.
To say "Truth Is" rides the fence.

Is not our knowledge of the former Truth (under all things before our knwoeldge of it) yet knowledge of Truth?
How could we have a True knowledge that lacks? Are you saying then that Truth is really False?
Then how do we have a Truth? Oh: all is relative. Ahh, everything is relative and based upon a shifting point of perspective.
Uh, well isnt This True knowledge also?
But wait !, There is an underlying truth that we have not come upon yet. Yes, this is True. But wait.. no.. I mean..

What can be false?
Oh yeah, we reduce everthing to relativity, and this knowledge of reality is true, it is an underlying Truth. But , wait. Ummm..truth is relative... I mean, there is an absolute Truth.

Uhhhh... What?

Oh yeah, there are atoms and.. uhhh.
Uuummm.

Ok. what is stopping us from seeing the truth?
Hmmmm.

[lancek4]

Sounds to me like you are saying Truth Is because we have a term for truth, which is little better than saying we have a term "God" and so God must exist.
Kinda weak there.
I am not arguing that kind of truth. To say "Truth Is" as a counter position to "there is no Truth" is really saying the same thing. It is saying that all is relative expept when it is not - - which is not very productive.

If you think that then why berate me for saying much the same?

Uhhhhhmmmmm.... i forgot. Maybe because you guys were in such an 'Excited' debate. I too got exicted and forgot what you guys were saying, cuz I was so exited.

Was I berating you? I just think you are a stubborn mule at times. And maybe Sphere-Guy couldnt see past his stubbornness either.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I snipped my bit because of the 3 max nested quote limitation. However it's easy to understand the chain because your text below is still attached to my original.

Sounds to me like you are saying Truth Is because we have a term for truth, which is little better than saying we have a term "God" and so God must exist.
Kinda weak there.
I am not arguing that kind of truth. To say "Truth Is" as a counter position to "there is no Truth" is really saying the same thing. It is saying that all is relative expept when it is not - - which is not very productive.

That's not what I'm saying.

It sounds to me like you're trying to suck me into the "chicken or the egg" paradox which in fact is not a paradox at all. Obviously they both were developed simultaneously starting with chemicals that allowed for the first DNA/RNA strands. The DNA being the chicken and the RNA being the egg. This, process came into being in the beginning or there would have never been a second generation of the first bit of life on the planet. And of course evolution continued the trend.

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth. There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

You won't go back that far because you can't, and nether can the truth.
That is the point. You are stuck in an anthropic fantasy.
The weakness of your argument is your claim that there were 'billions of them." Truth is conceptual, and you need a consciousness to delimit one truth from another. You might as well say that there was one truth as say there was a billion, or none - there is no difference. Without a mind to conceptualise the concept of truth is meaningless.
This fiction that you have made around yourself is the fiction of god.


The following is a dramatization and doesn't necessarily have any basis in actual truthful events to the best of my knowledge.

Lets go back to Ogg and Throg sitting around the campfire under the starlight in their mammoth skin loincloths while mogg was laying down in the cave. No truths were known to any of them as such, even though there were already billions that existed, some of which, they dealt with every day. No expression of truth whatsoever. Ogg lifts his right leg and cuts a big one, such that it explosively bursts into flames because of his proximity to the campfire catching his loin cloth on fire, so he lets out a grunt and starts running around like a chicken with its head cut off and disappears into the woods. Meanwhile Throg starts rolling on the ground laughing his head off. Mogg hears the ruckus and exits the cave and goes uuhhhh! that means what? Throg goes Ogg blurrrpp um ferrrr! that means Ogg fart on fire. Mogg goes naanana? that means no? Throg goes uuuuthhhh that means truth, of course Mogg's never heard that before so Throgg has to spend the next year explaining the concept. Truth is born! In the following millennia we find millions more, including those that we are not the originators of. Like the truth that the earth is not flat but somewhat spherical. And that you cannot necessarily find the west indies by sailing in that direction for a very long time, but you can find a new land to conquer., etc, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. That is of course, if we don't kill ourselves off with all that carbon dioxide first!

you just don't get it chaz, keep trying!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth. There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

you are saying that there has always been a Truth even though Throg and Glag didnt know of it. and you are also saying that Truth are the things we know.
So which one are you arguing?
If there is a Truth that we do not know, then there is a Truth
If there is only the Truth we know, then likewise there is Truth.
To say "Truth Is" rides the fence.

Is not our knowledge of the former Truth (under all things before our knwoeldge of it) yet knowledge of Truth?
How could we have a True knowledge that lacks? Are you saying then that Truth is really False?
Then how do we have a Truth? Oh: all is relative. Ahh, everything is relative and based upon a shifting point of perspective.
Uh, well isnt This True knowledge also?
But wait !, There is an underlying truth that we have not come upon yet. Yes, this is True. But wait.. no.. I mean..

What can be false?
Oh yeah, we reduce everthing to relativity, and this knowledge of reality is true, it is an underlying Truth. But , wait. Ummm..truth is relative... I mean, there is an absolute Truth.

Uhhhh... What?

Oh yeah, there are atoms and.. uhhh.
Uuummm.

Ok. what is stopping us from seeing the truth?
Hmmmm.

The only difference between truth and knowledge is that truth is independent of knowledge and humans, while knowledge is dependent on humans and truth.

[lancek4]

Truth exists not because of a term but rather the term exists because of the truth. There are billions of truths. Dating all the way back to that primordial ooze that the first life sprang from. But I won't go back that far.

you are saying that there has always been a Truth even though Throg and Glag didnt know of it. and you are also saying that Truth are the things we know.
So which one are you arguing?
If there is a Truth that we do not know, then there is a Truth
If there is only the Truth we know, then likewise there is Truth.
To say "Truth Is" rides the fence.

Is not our knowledge of the former Truth (under all things before our knwoeldge of it) yet knowledge of Truth?
How could we have a True knowledge that lacks? Are you saying then that Truth is really False?
Then how do we have a Truth? Oh: all is relative. Ahh, everything is relative and based upon a shifting point of perspective.
Uh, well isnt This True knowledge also?
But wait !, There is an underlying truth that we have not come upon yet. Yes, this is True. But wait.. no.. I mean..

What can be false?
Oh yeah, we reduce everthing to relativity, and this knowledge of reality is true, it is an underlying Truth. But , wait. Ummm..truth is relative... I mean, there is an absolute Truth.

Uhhhh... What?

Oh yeah, there are atoms and.. uhhh.
Uuummm.

Ok. what is stopping us from seeing the truth?
Hmmmm.

The only difference between truth and knowledge is that truth is independent of knowledge and humans, while knowledge is dependent on humans and truth.

So there is a God? How would I know of Its Truth?

[SpheresOfBalance]

So there is a God?

I have no clue if there is a god. I have never said there was a god. In terms of god, I have always said that it's possible. I'm glad you do!

How would I know of Its Truth?

You would have to have evidence that in fact he existed. I have no clue as to how, when or if you shall find the truth of god, if in fact he is in truth. How would I know what specific truths you're aware of. You are you, and I am I. I know the truths I've uncovered. It's your job to know the truths that you've uncovered.

[lancek4]

So there is a God?

I have no clue if there is a god. I have never said there was a god. In terms of god, I have always said that it's possible. I'm glad you do!

How would I know of Its Truth?

You would have to have evidence that in fact he existed. I have no clue as to how, when or if you shall find the truth of god, if in fact he is in truth. How would I know what specific truths you're aware of. You are you, and I am I. I know the truths I've uncovered. It's your job to know the truths that you've uncovered.

so there is your truth and then my truth? I thought you said there is an underlying truth. What is that? That we each have our own truth?

[chaz wyman]

You won't go back that far because you can't, and nether can the truth.
That is the point. You are stuck in an anthropic fantasy.
The weakness of your argument is your claim that there were 'billions of them." Truth is conceptual, and you need a consciousness to delimit one truth from another. You might as well say that there was one truth as say there was a billion, or none - there is no difference. Without a mind to conceptualise the concept of truth is meaningless.
This fiction that you have made around yourself is the fiction of god.

you just don't get it chaz, keep trying!

You've got nothing.
Your argument seem to be "I say so, so it is true.". Your words are empty.