Capitalism & Human Values

[John]

What I found amusing about the program is that the entire edifice of the underlying ideology of the American Revolution can be attributed to a novelist and second class philosopher whose life was a living contradiction of her own theories.

Ayn Rand's only contribution that I find impressive is the inspiration she provided for Bioshock. Other than that she's a hack and I'm astonished she gets the attention she does.

But this rational choice theory based on so-called enlightened self-interest is probably the most dangerous myth that modern civilisation is suffering from and its promoted by individuals that are acting like parasites on the efforts of everyday working people all over the world.
But his myth of the benign capitalist market is really heavily entrenched as can be seen from one or two threads on the Forum.
re: Spike?

I couldn't agree more. I see the rational choice myth as a modern twist on that other myth, the American Dream.

[chaz wyman]

What I found amusing about the program is that the entire edifice of the underlying ideology of the American Revolution can be attributed to a novelist and second class philosopher whose life was a living contradiction of her own theories.

Ayn Rand's only contribution that I find impressive is the inspiration she provided for Bioshock. Other than that she's a hack and I'm astonished she gets the attention she does.

But this rational choice theory based on so-called enlightened self-interest is probably the most dangerous myth that modern civilisation is suffering from and its promoted by individuals that are acting like parasites on the efforts of everyday working people all over the world.
But his myth of the benign capitalist market is really heavily entrenched as can be seen from one or two threads on the Forum.
re: Spike?

I couldn't agree more. I see the rational choice myth as a modern twist on that other myth, the American Dream.

It's pretty scary for being so well entrenched; controlled by the media. The US are even managing to challenge our state run media model, which seems to be creeping in at the sides of the BBC.

As for Rand- it's the wild staring eyes that get me! and Bioshock? a weird peri-techno world of gothic horror um- that's about right!

[John]

I've just watched the second episode, The Use and Abuse of Vegetational Concepts, and chaz I've really got to thank you for the recommendation because although someone had already suggested I watch it it was you're additional recommendation that tipped me towards doing so.

I may be biased because I've been something of a political animal since my childhood, a fairly recent student of philosophy and a technologist by profession the last twenty-odd years but this series is the first one that I'd describe as a real tour de force of ideas that I've seen in quite some time. Brilliant.

[chaz wyman]

I've just watched the second episode, The Use and Abuse of Vegetational Concepts, and chaz I've really got to thank you for the recommendation because although someone had already suggested I watch it it was you're additional recommendation that tipped me towards doing so.

I may be biased because I've been something of a political animal since my childhood, a fairly recent student of philosophy and a technologist by profession the last twenty-odd years but this series is the first one that I'd describe as a real tour de force of ideas that I've seen in quite some time. Brilliant.

I'm glad to be of help. I've not seen number two yet. My partner complained that I saw the first without her, and she wants to catch up before number 2.

She works in International Aid, and belong to a clique of thinkers that detest the world bank and global capitalism.

[spike]

Few things have produced more interesting or conundrums for me than capitalism. So it was with interest that I read the letters in issue 85 commenting on Frank Robinson's article "Capitalism & Human Values". What is clear is that there are those, like me, who admire capitalism and those who don't. And never the twain shall meet.

Just because I admire capitalism doesn't mean I am blind to its flaws. I consider myself having a rather balanced view towards capitalism, seeing both its pros and cons. I can't say that for those who are anti-capitalism. They are far more partisan in their view and tend only to be outraged and seeing red.

I know I have benefited from capitalism. Perhaps those who are anti-capitalism haven't realized this for themselves and think that they and the world could be better off under some imaginary, mythical economic system.

[artisticsolution]

Few things have produced more interesting or conundrums for me than capitalism. So it was with interest that I read the letters in issue 85 commenting on Frank Robinson's article "Capitalism & Human Values". What is clear is that there are those, like me, who admire capitalism and those who don't. And never the twain shall meet.

Just because I admire capitalism doesn't mean I am blind to its flaws. I consider myself having a rather balanced view towards capitalism, seeing both its pros and cons. I can't say that for those who are anti-capitalism. They are far more partisan in their view and tend only to be outraged and seeing red.

I know I have benefited from capitalism. Perhaps those who are anti-capitalism haven't realized this for themselves and think that they and the world could be better off under some imaginary, mythical economic system.

Hmmm....I am not anti capitalism but that does not mean I am for the currant brand we have now. I think unbridled capitalism is one of the most corrupt systems we could ever have. I am not a socialist by any means...but I think that capitalism tempered with socialism could work. There is absolutely no reason to put all the money into the rich's hands...there is also no reason to put all the money into the poor's hands. There should be a system of balance,,,,to offer the most freedom and good life to all. I really don't see the problem with playing fair.

[spike]

First of all, we do not live in unbridled capitalism, as you say. If we did it would be too high octane and too hot to handle. If it was truly unbridled it would destroy everything, including itself. There are tons of behind the scenes regulations that guard against unbridled capitalism. What we have is unbridled individuals that need bridling, like the Rupert Murdochs of this world.

What capitalism has gone through lately is more a period of irrational exuberance, which needs correcting. Capitalism, in many respects, is still an experiment, which is constantly finding its way.

This latest issue of PN is about LOVE. Let's not forget the unbridled-ness that goes on there.

[artisticsolution]

First of all, we do not live in unbridled capitalism, as you say. If we did it would be too high octane and too hot to handle. If it was truly unbridled it would destroy everything, including itself. There are tons of behind the scenes regulations that guard against unbridled capitalism. What we have is unbridled individuals that need bridling, like the Rupert Murdochs of this world.

What capitalism has gone through lately is more a period of irrational exuberance, which needs correcting. Capitalism, in many respects, is still an experiment, which is constantly finding its way.

This latest issue of PN is about LOVE. Let's not forget the unbridled-ness that goes on there.

I agree with most of what you say, but I am floored by that you admit it. So you are admitting that some regulation is good? So you are admitting that some socialism is good for capitalism to flourish?

Yes, love can be "unbridled" at times. But you don't have to fall for it's charms unwittingly do you? Can't you float on love's cloud while also knowing it could end at any moment? Can't you look at your lover and see his/her flaws realistically and still be in love?

Let suppose your lover is a greedy little capitalist. And you give give give...and they take take take and never give any dividends...ever... And while you know they are taking you for everything you own...you don't mind...because you are happy to get reimbursed with the emotional appeal of "love."

It seems to me that so often you allow yourself to fall in love with capitalism with your eyes closed tight. My thought is why not open them instead? Is it possible to love capitalism with your eyes wide open? Is it possible to love a person with your eyes wide open? Is it possible to set realistic limits on their behavior and still love them?

Yes, I say it is. If you love something or someone who steals you blind, it's okay to say...."Here are my limits....you won't cross this line. Now kiss me you fool!"

[spike]

art:

I agree with most of what you say, but I am floored by that you admit it. So you are admitting that some regulation is good? So you are admitting that some socialism is good for capitalism to flourish?

I don't know if you're taking me seriously or just yanking my chain. I mean, what kind of question is "So you are admitting that some regulation is good?"

Has anything of substance, system wise, ever been produced or made possible without regulations or a framework of guidance?

Capitalism, what ever you think of it, is a social activity. It is an activity done between people. So naturally capitalism is going to develop social aspects that are mutually beneficial, like transportation systems, community sewer and water works, community hospitals and energy grids that serve the community.

It is only an illusion that capitalism is free of socialism. Capitalism has become the preeminent economic system in the world because it best serves humanity's social needs and aspirations. It is not perfect, by any means. But what human endeavor is? Capitalism is just the best economic system possible considering the nature of things and human desires.

[chaz wyman]

art:

I agree with most of what you say, but I am floored by that you admit it. So you are admitting that some regulation is good? So you are admitting that some socialism is good for capitalism to flourish?

I don't know if you're taking me seriously or just yanking my chain. I mean, what kind of question is "So you are admitting that some regulation is good?"

Has anything of substance, system wise, ever been produced or made possible without regulations or a framework of guidance?

Capitalism, what ever you think of it, is a social activity. It is an activity done between people. So naturally capitalism is going to develop social aspects that are mutually beneficial, like transportation systems, community sewer and water works, community hospitals and energy grids that serve the community.

You mean the inevitable result of the human need to control the worst aspects of capitalism leads to socialism!!
So you are a Marxist!
Pity it took you so long to admit it- his is probably because you have a naive few that communism or socialism is that the opposite end of an imaginary spectrum with capitalism at the other. This is just the sort of false ideology that the Plutocrats want you to believe in.



It is only an illusion that capitalism is free of socialism. Capitalism has become the preeminent economic system in the world because it best serves humanity's social needs and aspirations. It is not perfect, by any means. But what human endeavor is? Capitalism is just the best economic system possible considering the nature of things and human desires.

[zorro]

I was reading an article on the high-speed train accident in China (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/world ... rt.html?hp) and thought of this post. I was thinking how western capitalism addresses human values better than the quasi system of capitalism China has. In the West people have a system of recourse when wronged, whereas in China recourse is futile. The system in China is totally skewed in favor of the state and the hell with human consequences.

But things are changing in China as capitalism marches on there. Capitalism is slowly emancipating people and giving them a voice to criticize government and hold it accountable. This rail accident may be a turning point for the Chinese, with people getting more respect.

Capitalist/free market countries give their citizens more respect and recognition, human values we all appreciate.

[chaz wyman]

I was reading an article on the high-speed train accident in China (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/world ... rt.html?hp) and thought of this post. I was thinking how western capitalism addresses human values better than the quasi system of capitalism China has. In the West people have a system of recourse when wronged, whereas in China recourse is futile. The system in China is totally skewed in favor of the state and the hell with human consequences.

But things are changing in China as capitalism marches on there. Capitalism is slowly emancipating people and giving them a voice to criticize government and hold it accountable. This rail accident may be a turning point for the Chinese, with people getting more respect.

Capitalist/free market countries give their citizens more respect and recognition, human values we all appreciate.

You are a card!

You must have missed Katrina then!

[Arising_uk]

And lets not forget Bhopal.

[zorro]

I didn't say that capitalism is perfect. You two guy seem to think perfection is possible when it comes to human governance. How delusional for you.

[chaz wyman]

I didn't say that capitalism is perfect. You two guy seem to think perfection is possible when it comes to human governance. How delusional for you.

There is not the slightest hint that either of us think that way.


I seem to think that Somalia is a free market too.