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popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2026 1:45 am
Russia was the fulcrum on which the Second World War was won and paid a horrific price in defeating that monster Nazi war machine. America lost half a million souls to that war; Russia lost twenty-seven million souls and a totally gutted country.
It wasn't Russia that lost twenty-seven million souls it was the USSR, and about half of them were Ukrainian, not Russian.
The USSR was Russia under Stalin, and the Ukrainians were fighting Russia side by side with the monster Nazi war machine. That Russia lost twenty-seven million souls in defeating the Nazi war machine is simply recorded history; look it up!
The Ukrainians have suffered plenty, especially given the Holdomor that Russia inflicted on them before Hitler even goth there. Any respect that Russia deserves for a right to self-determination is at least matched by Ukraine's right to the the same for which you show no regard whatsoever.
You're quite right about the horrors of the Stalin days of rule; he was as much a monster as Hitler, but it took one monster to defeat another monster, and it was Stalin's Russia that crushed the Nazi war machine and chased them all the way back to Berlin to deliver the final death blow of total defeat. I suspect you have no idea about the historical process that led to the invasion of Ukraine, or even the significance of the geometry at play. Ok, think of Ukraine as similar to Canada in relation to the United States: if Russia wished to establish a military presence in Canada, right on the US border, what would America do about this obvious threat to the United States? Do you think the States would tolerate that? Right, no, they would not, and neither has Russia; it invaded Ukraine just as the States would have invaded Canada. After the war, the Allies occupied Germany for many years, but eventually NATO wanted to free Germany and asked the Russians to go along with it. They did on the condition that NATO agreed to not move any forces closer to Russia. After this agreement, NATO began moving ever closer to Russia, one country at a time, and installing American military bases in these new members of NATO. When Russia expressed its concerns over its security, it was told that what NATO does is none of its business. This process continued until NATO wanted to occupy Ukraine right on Russia's border; thus, the evil Russians invaded Ukraine, and the war with the West began. This is how Russia, through the Western propaganda machine, became the bad guy in this scenario.
That's a complete logical mess.
I don't care for any of this Victorian era spheres-of-influence nonsense and I can't see how somebody whinging about empires as you do can justify it. Metternich died 150 years ago, let him stay that way.
All the countries that border all the other countries have the right to self-determination. Your imperialist crap justifies none of the authoritarian shit you are selling. Those countries are all democracies, none of them is a territory of any American empire.
It wasn't Russia that lost twenty-seven million souls it was the USSR, and about half of them were Ukrainian, not Russian.
The USSR was Russia under Stalin, and the Ukrainians were fighting Russia side by side with the monster Nazi war machine. That Russia lost twenty-seven million souls in defeating the Nazi war machine is simply recorded history; look it up!
The Ukrainians have suffered plenty, especially given the Holdomor that Russia inflicted on them before Hitler even goth there. Any respect that Russia deserves for a right to self-determination is at least matched by Ukraine's right to the the same for which you show no regard whatsoever.
You're quite right about the horrors of the Stalin days of rule; he was as much a monster as Hitler, but it took one monster to defeat another monster, and it was Stalin's Russia that crushed the Nazi war machine and chased them all the way back to Berlin to deliver the final death blow of total defeat. I suspect you have no idea about the historical process that led to the invasion of Ukraine, or even the significance of the geometry at play. Ok, think of Ukraine as similar to Canada in relation to the United States: if Russia wished to establish a military presence in Canada, right on the US border, what would America do about this obvious threat to the United States? Do you think the States would tolerate that? Right, no, they would not, and neither has Russia; it invaded Ukraine just as the States would have invaded Canada. After the war, the Allies occupied Germany for many years, but eventually NATO wanted to free Germany and asked the Russians to go along with it. They did on the condition that NATO agreed to not move any forces closer to Russia. After this agreement, NATO began moving ever closer to Russia, one country at a time, and installing American military bases in these new members of NATO. When Russia expressed its concerns over its security, it was told that what NATO does is none of its business. This process continued until NATO wanted to occupy Ukraine right on Russia's border; thus, the evil Russians invaded Ukraine, and the war with the West began. This is how Russia, through the Western propaganda machine, became the bad guy in this scenario.
That's a complete logical mess.
I don't care for any of this Victorian era spheres-of-influence nonsense and I can't see how somebody whinging about empires as you do can justify it. Metternich died 150 years ago, let him stay that way.
All the countries that border all the other countries have the right to self-determination. Your imperialist crap justifies none of the authoritarian shit you are selling. Those countries are all democracies, none of them is a territory of any American empire.
You're quite right about the horrors of the Stalin days of rule; he was as much a monster as Hitler, but it took one monster to defeat another monster, and it was Stalin's Russia that crushed the Nazi war machine and chased them all the way back to Berlin to deliver the final death blow of total defeat. I suspect you have no idea about the historical process that led to the invasion of Ukraine, or even the significance of the geometry at play. Ok, think of Ukraine as similar to Canada in relation to the United States: if Russia wished to establish a military presence in Canada, right on the US border, what would America do about this obvious threat to the United States? Do you think the States would tolerate that? Right, no, they would not, and neither has Russia; it invaded Ukraine just as the States would have invaded Canada. After the war, the Allies occupied Germany for many years, but eventually NATO wanted to free Germany and asked the Russians to go along with it. They did on the condition that NATO agreed to not move any forces closer to Russia. After this agreement, NATO began moving ever closer to Russia, one country at a time, and installing American military bases in these new members of NATO. When Russia expressed its concerns over its security, it was told that what NATO does is none of its business. This process continued until NATO wanted to occupy Ukraine right on Russia's border; thus, the evil Russians invaded Ukraine, and the war with the West began. This is how Russia, through the Western propaganda machine, became the bad guy in this scenario.
That's a complete logical mess.
I don't care for any of this Victorian era spheres-of-influence nonsense and I can't see how somebody whinging about empires as you do can justify it. Metternich died 150 years ago, let him stay that way.
All the countries that border all the other countries have the right to self-determination. Your imperialist crap justifies none of the authoritarian shit you are selling. Those countries are all democracies, none of them is a territory of any American empire.
I think at least some of the confusion here is understanding the history of the rise of the "nation state". We now live in a world dominated by nation states but it wasn't always so. The medieval "states" had a great deal less of unified/centralized rule. That's why I am saying for RUSSIA (as a nation state) that was 16th Century under Ivan IV (aka Ivan the Terrible). The Ukraine (the part of the Rus' centered on Kiev) didn't become part of Russia until the 18th Century. What is now Belarus (the part of the Rus' centered on Novgorad) about the same time. This was part of the breaking up of Poland which had been under Lithuania << yes, organized early as a nation state, Lithuania was once a major power >>>
BUT -- in the 13th and 14th Centuries almost all of this area was under the control/overlordship of the Tatars << aka the "Mongols" >> who also ruled China. In the 13th and 14th Centuries a lot of the area also under the gradually collapsing Byzantine Empire (last bit went down 15th Century)
Especially in the area of the "south Slavs" unwise to consider all this "ancient history". Look at the break-up of Yugoslavia and the fighting that broke out. PART the effort of the Serbs was to not lose control of the site of the "Field of the Blackbirds" (in Kosova --- 14th Century battle, Serbians trying to stop the Turks --- look folks, we probably had a history education centered on Western Europe but this, and the second battle of Kosova in the 15th Century (now the Magyars trying to stop the Turks) were the really big battles of their time period )
What is now Belarus is not geographically connected to Novgorod.
And the formation of modern Belarusians is not connected with Novgorod, Belarusians were formed on the territory of Rus' that was under Lithuania, and the Belarusian language was also formed there.
In Western sources, the territory of Novgorod was once considered part of "White Rus'", but this has no relation to modern Belarusians.
Novgorod belongs to the territory where the Great Russians and the modern Russian language were formed.
The princes of Rus' brought tribute to the Mongol-Tatars, but the Mongol-Tatars themselves did not live in Rus', they carried out raids.
