God and morality

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 30106
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: God and morality

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 8:08 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 2:36 pm I'm not sure what the correct civilized and Christian approach to race might be.
I am.

"...He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His descendants.’ (Acts. 17:26-28)
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 7:34 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 2:47 pm You ought to read some of the things Jesus said.

Talk about radical. :shock:
This is the moment when Phyllo, who knows what’s up, who truly understands what is important and needed and what a moral retrograde like Alexis Jacobi must be instructed to think, must realize, so that what he thinks and realizes will concord with the plan and will of Jesus.

Can we refer to a specific case? On this thread the topic of Islam has come up, and here I suggest you tell me about the conditions on London and other English cities and the civil crisis developing there. And please, provide a clear path (a Christian path, according to Phyllo) for handling and resolving this crisis.

With your elevated moral understanding I imagine you will not have any difficulty.
You have me confused with Mr Can.

I'm just pointing out that what you call radical may be radical for you and unacceptable to you.... but it's not more radical, not more shocking and not more unacceptable than what Jesus was saying in his time.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 7:50 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 2:36 pm Are you sure that your library isn't an echo chamber?
What you mean is: Have I been over-influenced by texts or trends of thought that are now considered backwards or that now comprise wrongthink? Can you please create a list of appropriate titles for sound, moral influence?

I interpret your reaction (to a few titles I mentioned only to indicate how the currents of acceptability have shifted) as an indication on your part of your own limitations. But I have already indicated that I specifically sought out ‘forbidden texts’ in order to counter-balance my previous reading choices.

I have deliberately read some of the titles that were circulating in the Interwar period and that has enabled me to better understand the reactionary trends of that period.
Do you still read a variety of books?

Because you keep bringing up books with the same themes, over and over.

The interwar period was a hundred years ago.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

Each of those topics would need to be examined and thought through. Do you keep up on topical cultural themes? Presently, and it is quite wide-spread, there is an on-going examination and critique of what late American Liberalism has produced. I am somewhat startled and amazed by it. Two currents are notable: one is a critical examination of “feminism” and the other is a sudden reexamination of American Christian Zionism.

Are you interested in these controversies?
If we are talking about European stuff worth preserving or "regenerating" ...

Well,that's just changing the subject, isn't it? From, what aspects of "women's rights" are good and should be kept or bad and discarded, to "a critical examination of feminism".

Also a switch from "European" to "American".

"American Christian Zionism" is something you care about. Anybody else interested? Start a thread.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8875
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: God and morality

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 9:26 pm Do you still read a variety of books?
Oh yeah. I do tend to bring up here titles that counter or contradict the ideological formulations of our present. That is the reason why I brought up Religious Attitudes of the Indo-Europeans (which is actually a very good book). It is by an author that was read in Germany in the postWW One era, and it does deal on ideas that were circulating in Europe at the time. The gist of his analysis is that there is a real and valid cultural history of the Indo-Europeans that is older than the “Christian imposition” (my quotes, not his). And the Germans, and not only those who became National Socialists that were swept up in that consequential movement, had reservations — valid reservations — about certain leveling tendencies common to Christianity. And the Nietzschean reaction is certainly one against a ‘slavish mentality’.

Now it must be understood that the National Socialists were extremely hostile to Christians and Catholics alike because they were “Nietzschean men of action”. But the Northern man generally is in certain senses a distinct type. That type does not combine well with the Mediterranean type or perhaps you can say that that type “resists civilizing influences”. The Northern type — specifically Erasmus and certainly Luther — could not but feel inclined to modify the religious form of the Papacy i.e. Catholicism). They would rebel against such a ‘yoke’.

There is an interesting title that explores this: The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity: A Sociohistorical Approach to Religious Transformation (James C. Russell,Oxford). What I took away from it was the realization that “Christianity” and even as you emphasize “the teachings of Jesus”, will be interpreted and applied by different people in different circumstances.

Ask a warrior of a warrior culture what “being a Christian means” and you’ll get a different response than from someone civilized through agricultural culture for hundreds of years. Also it takes a certain type to carry on, if you will, as an “otherworldly man” as distinct from a “this-worldly man”. That tendency — to value life, not to devalue it, and to be more concerned for the present and what one can build here and now, distinguishes different types of men, and the Northern man has pronounced this-worldly tendencies.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

What I took away from it was the realization that “Christianity” and even as you emphasize “the teachings of Jesus” will be interpreted and applied by different people in different circumstances.
Yes. Some interpretations are reasonable. Some interpretations are outright bullshit. Some are self-serving. Some are self-harming.

One has to be clear about the context and the evidence.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8875
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: God and morality

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 9:50 pm Well, that's just changing the subject, isn't it?
Not in my view. In my own case what most interests me is what is going on in our present. And there are direct lines of connection to things happening now, to events and processes decades and longer back.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8875
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: God and morality

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 10:34 pm
What I took away from it was the realization that “Christianity” and even as you emphasize “the teachings of Jesus” will be interpreted and applied by different people in different circumstances.
Yes. Some interpretations are reasonable. Some interpretations are outright bullshit. Some are self-serving. Some are self-harming.

One has to be clear about the context and the evidence.
Fine. But you have not clarified anything.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

Ask a warrior of a warrior culture what “being a Christian means” and you’ll get a different response than from someone civilized through agricultural culture for hundreds of years. Also it takes a certain type to carry on, if you will, as an “otherworldly man” as distinct from a “this-worldly man”. That tendency — to value life, not to devalue it, and to be more concerned for the present and what one can build here and now, distinguishes different types of men, and the Northern man has pronounced this-worldly tendencies.
I would say that Mediterranean man enjoys this world much more than Northern man.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 10:35 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 9:50 pm Well, that's just changing the subject, isn't it?
Not in my view. In my own case what most interests me is what is going on in our present. And there are direct lines of connection to things happening now, to events and processes decades and longer back.
Okay, you don't see that "feminism" isn't the same as "women's rights" and that a "European" context is different from an "American" context.

Whatever.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: God and morality

Post by phyllo »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 10:37 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 10:34 pm
What I took away from it was the realization that “Christianity” and even as you emphasize “the teachings of Jesus” will be interpreted and applied by different people in different circumstances.
Yes. Some interpretations are reasonable. Some interpretations are outright bullshit. Some are self-serving. Some are self-harming.

One has to be clear about the context and the evidence.
Fine. But you have not clarified anything.
How can I clarify if you're talking about generalities like "Christianity" and "the teaching of Jesus"?

Which teaching of Jesus about which subject?
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8875
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: God and morality

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 10:51 pm How can I clarify if you're talking about generalities like "Christianity" and "the teaching of Jesus"?
That was your reference, no?

You are right: to say “Christianity” is really too general. I am thinking about Catholic Christianity, historical Christianity in Europe, when I use that word here.

I have had a similar issue with IC: when he defines it he means a Lutheran and Protestant (Pauline?) Christianity which substantially rejects major elements that are Catholic-Christian. Whereas I mean a historical and cultural tradition of Christianity in Europe which is varied and more intricate.
Gary Childress
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: It's my fault

Re: God and morality

Post by Gary Childress »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 10:19 pm Ask a warrior of a warrior culture what “being a Christian means” and you’ll get a different response than from someone civilized through agricultural culture for hundreds of years. Also it takes a certain type to carry on, if you will, as an “otherworldly man” as distinct from a “this-worldly man”. That tendency — to value life, not to devalue it, and to be more concerned for the present and what one can build here and now, distinguishes different types of men, and the Northern man has pronounced this-worldly tendencies.
Can you give a comparison of the meaning of Christianity as seen through a "warrior" society versus as seen through an "agrarian" society? What does Christianity mean to a warrior society that is different from an agrarian society? What is the fundamental difference between the two interpretations? What parts of Scripture do warriors stress, and what parts of Scripture do farmers stress?
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8875
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: God and morality

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

A most curious and question-ridden Denizen of Our Belovèd Forum asks a decent question! And Alexis Jacobi answers! Remember: we are (or I am) discussing the processes by with Mediterranean Christianity was brought into the uncivilized Germanic world. And also remember that Northern Europe “had issues” with the demands that a Pauline Christianity imposed. True, the history in the book I cite from starts in the 9th century more or less, but you know what I always say: We are outcomes of long causal chains.
Curious Gary wrote:Can you give a comparison of the meaning of Christianity as seen through a "warrior" society versus as seen through an "agrarian" society? What does Christianity mean to a warrior society that is different from an agrarian society? What is the fundamental difference between the two interpretations? What parts of Scripture do warriors stress, and what parts of Scripture do farmers stress?
The Germanization of Christianity was not the civilizing of the Germans, but the Germanizing of Christ.

When Roman Christianity met the Germanic tribes of the north — Franks, Saxons, Goths, Anglo-Saxons — it met a culture that had almost nothing in common with the Mediterranean world that produced the Gospels. Rome was a world of cities, law, bureaucracy and universal ethics. The Germanic world was a world of blood kinship, warbands, and personal loyalty. Its highest values were courage, honor, revenge for insult, and undying loyalty to one's lord. Its lowest vice was cowardice. A religion that preached turn the other cheek, love your enemy, and blessed are the meek made no sense in that world. A god who died passively on a cross looked like a failed chieftain.

So missionaries, often without meaning to, translated Christianity into Germanic language in the deepest sense.

The clearest example is the Heliand, a Saxon paraphrase of the Gospels written around 830 for the Saxons whom Charlemagne had just converted by the sword. In it, Jesus is not a wandering teacher but a mighty warlord, a ring-giver who rewards his followers with treasure. His disciples are not fishermen and tax collectors but gesiths [a wellborn companion or attendant of an Anglo-Saxon king : THANE], sworn warriors of his comitatus [a body of wellborn men attached to a king or chieftain by the duty of military service] who have pledged to die for him. The Sermon on the Mount is delivered as advice from a lord to his retainers before battle. When Christ goes to the cross, the poet describes him as a battle-hardened king choosing his fate.

This was not just poetry. It was how conversion actually worked. Germanic peoples did not have a concept of religion as a private belief. Religion was tribal luck. You worshiped the gods who gave your people victory. So kings converted in the Germanic way. Clovis, king of the Franks, reportedly called on Christ in the middle of the Battle of Tolbiac in 496, promising that if Christ gave him victory he would follow him. He won, so he and his warband were baptized. It was a bargain with a stronger patron.

Once inside the Church, Christianity was reshaped to fit Germanic ideas of law and kinship. Romans thought of sin as guilt before a divine judge. Germans thought of wrongdoing as a debt that must be paid to the injured party through weregild [the value set in Anglo-Saxon and Germanic law upon human life in accordance with rank and paid as compensation to the kindred or lord of a slain person], a “man-price”. The Church adapted by creating penitentials, which were essentially price lists for sin: steal a cow, do forty days on bread and water; kill a priest, do seven years; ask too many questions of Alexis Jacobi in one post, pay an extraordinary fine. This is the direct ancestor of the medieval indulgence system that Luther would later protest. Sin became a quantifiable debt you could pay off.

Baptism itself became a new kind of blood adoption. To be baptized was to leave your old kin and be grafted into Christ's tribe. Your godfather became not a spiritual metaphor but a real kinsman bound to avenge you and pay weregild if you were harmed. Saints became new tribal ancestors. Just as each German tribe had its patron ancestor, now each kingdom had its patron saint in heaven — Saint Denis for the Franks, Saint Wenceslas for the Czechs, Saint Olaf for the Norwegians — who fought for their people as a heavenly warlord.

Even the Church's organization changed. A Roman bishop was an urban magistrate. A Germanic bishop became a lord with a fortress, vassals, and armed men. An abbey became a fortified manor. The abbot was no longer just a spiritual father but a territorial chieftain who could lead knights into battle, as the abbots of Fulda and St. Gall often did.

What emerged by the year 1000 was a new kind of Christianity. For early Christians, war was a tragic necessity to be regretted. For Germanized Christians, war could be the highest act of devotion. To die fighting for Christ, as in the Crusades, became a form of martyrdom. Heaven was no longer imagined as a city of peace, but as a great hall where Christ the victorious king feasted his loyal warriors. The image of Christ himself shifted from the suffering servant to Christus Victor, the conquering hero trampling the devil underfoot, much like Odin defeating his enemies.

Churchmen like Alcuin complained about this and warned that faith must come by persuasion, not force, and that German customs should not corrupt the Gospel. But the compromise worked. By making Christ a Germanic lord, the Church survived the fall of Rome. It created a faith that a Saxon warrior could understand and die for, but it was a faith that Paul of Tarsus would have hardly recognized.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8875
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: God and morality

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Remember my darling childrens: We have been engaged in a looooooonnngggg conversation — years now! YEARS! — revolving around the topic of Christianity. It never dies! Did you take it seriously? C’mon, answer! No, you probably didn’t. But that’s OK …

So once again I think we need to reconsider and re-visualize our own metaphysical situation. In order to unnerstan ourselves, to unnerstan our situation on many different levels, we do need to avail ourselves of a Master Metaphysician. But that really does seem to mean that we must become one!

I pointed out to IC that his brand of Christianity allows him to fully and completely disregard European Christianity as an intricate, enduring, civilizing historical process, and quite literally to establish a position in our ultra-modernity, after vast transformations in thought and understanding of the world, and “hop over” 1,900 years of history and back into The Gospel Picture! This is fantastic and really quite amazing!
Post Reply