God and morality

[Immanuel Can]

No it's not...

Yeah, it is. The truth is the same for every person...there are only those who may know it, and those who may not. But not knowing doesn't produce a different "truth," just a different relation to the truth.

I believe we are confusing two things, THE TRUTH and knowledge of the truth.

I wasn't confusing them at all. I was the one pointing out the difference, in fact.

IC, what do you men by "those who might know it and those who do not"

Easy.

There are those who believe the earth is round, and those who believe it is flat. One of them is right, and one of them is wrong. But the truth is not interested in what the flat-earthers think. It's going to be what it is, regardless of their feelings.

Now, if I were a flat-earther, it wouldn't make the earth flat for me, and round for you. Relativism would not become true merely because I wanted it to be, and because I stubbornly refused to believe you. And if you pointed out to me that the earth is round, you would not be insulting me, or criticizing me, or denying me a "truth." You would simply be right. I would be wrong. And that would be all there was to it.

Moreover, if you thought the earth was a polygon, and I thought it was a dodecahedron, that would not make both of us right. It would only make us both wrong. It's round. Round is all it's ever going to be. Our knowledge will have zero effects on the facts.

Moreover, if I argue with you, I'm already assuming this. When I rage at you, and say, "It's a dodecahedron," I'm assuming the existence of an objective truth, namely the dodecahedron-ness of the earth. And when you reply, "It's not; it's a polygon," you're assuming the same: the existence of objective truth. No insults are being implied. All that's happening is we are discussing what is objectively the case.

[Lacewing]

The truth is the same for every person...there are only those who may know it, and those who may not.

Imposing your beliefs on everyone is not truthful.

"Imposing"? You'll have trouble showing how I've "imposed" by writing an email

No trouble. People can impose their beliefs of 'WHAT IS for EVERY PERSON' in all sorts of ways... through speaking, writing, and physically hitting people over the head. When people here tell you that you are wrong about WHAT IS for themselves, you insist that you know and they don't.

'Language can be used to impose power, control, and influence over others, both subtly and overtly. It is not a neutral tool; it reflects and reinforces social hierarchies, cultural values, and dominant ideologies.'

...and simply having an opinion you don't like.

Ah! So NOW you acknowledge that it's 'just your opinion'? Good job! You're most often too busy speaking 'from on high' for your glory as a great seer and knower over every other person.

[Immanuel Can]

Imposing your beliefs on everyone is not truthful.

"Imposing"? You'll have trouble showing how I've "imposed" by writing an email

...speaking, writing, and physically hitting people over the head...

Yes, I see. They're all the same...exactly. Words...physical violence...no difference.

...and simply having an opinion you don't like.

Ah! So NOW you acknowledge that it's 'just your opinion'?

You've forgotten: some opinions are right. Maybe you're not used to that, though.

[Lacewing]

"Imposing"? You'll have trouble showing how I've "imposed" by writing an email

...speaking, writing, and physically hitting people over the head...

'Language can be used to impose power, control, and influence over others, both subtly and overtly. It is not a neutral tool; it reflects and reinforces social hierarchies, cultural values, and dominant ideologies.'

Yes, I see. They're all the same...exactly. Words...physical violence...no difference.

They're all examples of how to impose. Try to focus.

...and simply having an opinion you don't like.

Ah! So NOW you acknowledge that it's 'just your opinion'?

You've forgotten: some opinions are right.

I've not forgotten. I can simply see how false you are.

[Immanuel Can]

...speaking, writing, and physically hitting people over the head...

'Language can be used to impose power, control, and influence over others, both subtly and overtly. It is not a neutral tool; it reflects and reinforces social hierarchies, cultural values, and dominant ideologies.'

Yes, I see. They're all the same...exactly. Words...physical violence...no difference.

They're all examples of how to impose. Try to focus.

You don't know any difference between words and violence, and you think I'm the one that needs to "focus"?

[Lacewing]

Yes, I see. They're all the same...exactly. Words...physical violence...no difference.

They're all examples of how to impose. Try to focus.

You don't know any difference between words and violence...

Can you simply not help yourself from saying untrue things when you're trying to justify your nonsense by any means?

[Immanuel Can]

They're all examples of how to impose. Try to focus.

You don't know any difference between words and violence...

Can you simply not help yourself from saying untrue things when you're trying to justify your nonsense by any means?

Hey, you said it. I didn't. You answer for it. I don't.

Words are not "impositions." You can always plug your ears. You're probably used to doing that anyway.

[Gary Childress]

You don't know any difference between words and violence...

Can you simply not help yourself from saying untrue things when you're trying to justify your nonsense by any means?

Hey, you said it. I didn't. You answer for it. I don't.

Words are not "impositions." You can always plug your ears. You're probably used to doing that anyway.

Well, if there truly is a God, and if that God is benevolent, then you ought to have a lot to answer for IC. I guess we'll have to see how things pan out in the end, if there's any "seeing" after the end.

[Immanuel Can]

Can you simply not help yourself from saying untrue things when you're trying to justify your nonsense by any means?

Hey, you said it. I didn't. You answer for it. I don't.

Words are not "impositions." You can always plug your ears. You're probably used to doing that anyway.

Well, if there truly is a God, and if that God is benevolent, then you ought to have a lot to answer for IC.

We all have to give an answer, Gary. That's why we ought to look at our own hearts very carefully, and manage our actions according to what is right.

Elon musk will give his account. So will I. So will Gary Childress. Just be ready to make that account.

[Gary Childress]

Hey, you said it. I didn't. You answer for it. I don't.

Words are not "impositions." You can always plug your ears. You're probably used to doing that anyway.

Well, if there truly is a God, and if that God is benevolent, then you ought to have a lot to answer for IC.

We all have to give an answer, Gary. That's why we ought to look at our own hearts very carefully, and manage our actions according to what is right.

Elon musk will give his account. So will I. So will Gary Childress. Just be ready to make that account.

What makes you think I will have anything to answer for? Why should you be worried about me? Shouldn't you be more worried about IC and why IC accuses people who believe in economic fairness of being "envious"? I really can't think of anything that I need to answer for that I haven't already answered for. But if you can think of something I need to answer for, feel free to alert me.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, if there truly is a God, and if that God is benevolent, then you ought to have a lot to answer for IC.

We all have to give an answer, Gary. That's why we ought to look at our own hearts very carefully, and manage our actions according to what is right.

Elon musk will give his account. So will I. So will Gary Childress. Just be ready to make that account.

What makes you think I will have anything to answer for?

I have my own sins to explain, Gary. And unless you're sinless, you have yours. But on the authority of Scripture, I don't believe you could be sinless. You've got to have a few things you need to explain, I'm quite sure. Covetousness, for a start. You've expressed that consistently. Remember commandment #10?

IC accuses people who believe in economic fairness of being "envious"?

You've never explained to me why you think you're entitled to the money Elon Musk has. Maybe you will now.

[Gary Childress]

We all have to give an answer, Gary. That's why we ought to look at our own hearts very carefully, and manage our actions according to what is right.

Elon musk will give his account. So will I. So will Gary Childress. Just be ready to make that account.

What makes you think I will have anything to answer for?

I have my own sins to explain, Gary. And unless you're sinless, you have yours. But on the authority of Scripture, I don't believe you could be sinless. You've got to have a few things you need to explain, I'm quite sure. Covetousness, for a start. You've expressed that consistently. Remember commandment #10?

IC accuses people who believe in economic fairness of being "envious"?

You've never explained to me why you think you're entitled to the money Elon Musk has. Maybe you will now.

That's because I have never once said that I believe I'm entitled to the money Elon Musk has. I have repeatedly said that his employees are more entitled to some of it than Musk is. Musk doesn't do anything so fantastic that he should earn $400 billion a year while the rest of his employees earn substantially less than pennies on the dollar. Just saying. I know that upsets you to hear. But it seems like a very obvious fact to me.

[Lacewing]

...

Well, if there truly is a God, and if that God is benevolent, then you ought to have a lot to answer for IC.

Anyone who lies and distorts as much as I.C. does, is only representing themselves, not any kind of truth. And any 'god' who would support that would be a product of someone's toxic, self-serving imagination. It is not necessary to be so consistently deceptive UNLESS someone is hiding or serving something FALSE.

You are authentic, Gary. You are a truthful person. I have never seen you lie. That is a much more beautiful reflection of the divine than a lying Christian.

[Gary Childress]

You are authentic, Gary. You are a truthful person. I have never seen you lie.

Thank you, Lacewing. I appreciate it.

[Immanuel Can]

What makes you think I will have anything to answer for?

I have my own sins to explain, Gary. And unless you're sinless, you have yours. But on the authority of Scripture, I don't believe you could be sinless. You've got to have a few things you need to explain, I'm quite sure. Covetousness, for a start. You've expressed that consistently. Remember commandment #10?

IC accuses people who believe in economic fairness of being "envious"?

You've never explained to me why you think you're entitled to the money Elon Musk has. Maybe you will now.

That's because I have never once said that I believe I'm entitled to the money Elon Musk has. I have repeatedly said that his employees are more entitled to some of it than Musk is.

Prove that. How much is each of his employees entitled to, and why?

It's curious that you feel you have some stake in this, too...clearly, you think your own judgment about that is really important, despite the fact that you confess you actually have no personal entitlement at all. I wonder why you think your assessment matters.