US and Israel attack Iran

[Lacewing]

I had sone faith in the ‘movement’ that Trump spearheaded or perhaps inspired.

Well, that was obviously an unbelievable farce to vast numbers of people from the start.

...your TDS induces you to focus...

Are you seriously referring to this made-up TDS bullshit? For someone such as yourself who prides themselves on looking at past indicators, why did you ignore/misjudge Trump's? And now you want to claim that people who were aware enough to see the absurdity BEFORE ever going down that dumbass path are somehow suffering from some syndrome? No, Jacobi... people who recognize things from the start are not suffering from a syndrome when they speak the truth that is in plain sight. Don't kid yourself into thinking that all was believable UNTIL blah, blah, blah. He has a long pathetic history and dishonest reputation that you should have considered... but you didn't... and that's YOUR failure and YOUR blindness -- NOT the prior administration's or anyone else's.

It might help you to acknowledge to yourself that you're just realizing what many other people ALREADY recognized... and yes, WAY AHEAD of you. It happens. Allow it. If you keep making up stupid shit to cover your ass or pretend that it wasn't reasonably clear until now, you'll continue to stay in service to your delusional self-glorifying bubble... which is EXACTLY and CLEARLY what Trump is all about for himself. And many people around the world can see how clearly stupid and destructive that is. It's on him. Stop making excuses. LET'S DO BETTER.

[seeds]

Seeds quoting Scripture:
“...there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect...”

Seeds, you must know that at all junctures in history people have read this text, then looked out at their world, and seen the same signs and false prophets and even great signs and wonders.

In response to my accusing you of attempting to steer the conversation away from my fun little theory (away from my “shtick”), you stated the following...

Oh no, I am quite interested in hearing how you will develop this idea.

And when I re-presented the idea to you, you, once again, ignored it and only responded to a tiny and trivial snippet (quoted above) from my extremely long post.

I’ve always had high hopes for you, little brother, but I’m finding you to be a constant source of disappointment.

But that’s okay, I get it that you're not mentally equipped (not awake enough) to discuss topics that are above your pay grade.

I nevertheless still appreciate and enjoy your amusing and witty repartee.

Btw, not in a million years would I be caught wearing those prissy little dancing shoes of yours.

Have it your way. But what about the cane and the hat?

Liza Minnelli and Judy Garland both called and asked me to ask the “weirdo” ← (their word, not mine) to give back their keepsake movie props.

Dorothy was wondering if you have some kind of woman’s shoe fetish?

I said, yes, probably, but that’s the least of his troubling issues.

I then went on to explain to them that the “weirdo” was a faithful supporter of the pathological liar, Donald J. Trump, right up until the precise (as in literal) minute when Trump slaughtered 150 little schoolgirls.

They were horrified and said to...

“...tell the weirdo that he can keep the stolen items because they were afraid that the keepsakes may have been contaminated with the weirdo’s bad mojo*...”

*(Liza used the term “bad mojo” because she is a little hipper than Judy.)

So, anyway, I guess from now on, whenever I come across one of your posts, I’ll try to repress my TDS and fondly picture you out and about in the town square wearing Dorothy’s shoes and Liza’s top hat...

(I’ll even imagine you in Liza’s sequined tuxedo jacket)

...with you yelling at the top of your lungs at anyone giving you the side-eye...

“...it’s ma’am...”
_______

[Iwannaplato]

There is something to this.
The United States neutralized Saddam Hussein, who attacked Kuwait, oppressed the Kurds with chemical weapons, and fired missiles at Israel.
Then the US neutralized the sadistic ISIS thugs.
Now, thanks to Allah, Trump is neutralizing the IRGC terrorists, who initially declared their main goal to be "death to America."
It's clear that people like Mamdani and his American voters don't like this.
Christian Tucker Carlson and his ilk don't like it either.
The already warped brains of anti-Semites do not allow them to cope with their demagoguery.

But there is something more global in this world, on the one hand, Christian idolatry, the insolvency of the Trinity, and it is indicated in the Quran, so Muslims are aware of it.
On the other hand, the demagogy of Muslims does not allow them to understand the Tanakh, and they slide towards ISIS, the IRGC, Hamas.

And anti-religious people end up with parades of sexual perversions.

C'est la vie

And here Janoah misses or avoids the main point of my post. He interprets no wanting to go to war with Iran as being pro-the regime in Iran and anti-semitic. That's it. If you are against US participation in the war your motives are pro-Ayatollah anti-Jew. This is ad hominem in the extreme, nicely avoids having to deal with any of their actually arguments against the war, which are diverse, and thus self-serving. If you don't want the US military to do what I want them to do, then you are evil. People could not have other motives for not wanting yet again a military intervention then perhaps invasion in the ME, given what this has led to before. People couldn't be pacifist. People couldn't possibily be concerned about civilians and the lives of US soldiers, given what has happened previous times in the ME. People couldn't be concerned that Trump who ran on a promise to not intervene, not do regime change in the ME - and his position was passionate and utterly clear - is suddenly doing this for reasons not made clear. You know, when a mature person says 'Yes, I asserted X many, many times. But here's why I seem to be or in fact am going against what I said. People could not have wanted a different approach to solving the problem.

No. If someone disagrees with Janoah regarding US foreign policy, then they are anti-semites and they like the regime in Iran.

Yes, many people in Iran support the war, quietly. Now. But if it goes the way of Iraq or Tunesia they may well think differently as citizens there, especially in Iraq went through a change over time when they saw what invasion by the US entails. Further, many people in Iran are afraid that if the regime manages to survive the war, which is clearly possible, they will be much worse on the people. Anyone thinking Trump gives a shit about the people of Iran is confused. And he may well accept some face-saving compromise where the regime is intact. That may be the opposite of a positive thing for the Iranian people. The US does not intervene for the people of the countries they intervene in, and it shows.

But no, being aware of any of this or the other issues above means it's all about anti-semitism and love for the Iranian regime. This is a nice simplistic and no doubt comforting little next to curl up in. No complexity, just condemnation or do what I want. A binary, self serving bit of mind reading.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Do not be so stupid! There is much more to be gained through careful and cool analysis of what is going on within the America polity, and also within world politics, as well as by analysis of and understanding of 'the time of war' that we are in. Stop the ridiculous bickering!

See this is just one of the reasons why I love myself so much and honor myself with such adulation! This one statement is worth US$999.00!

• Stop being stupid, be smart

• Get clear about how to progress in IDEAS and PERSPECTIVES

• Examine things from a 'distance'; become less involved emotionally, more dispassionate

• Understand that 'the world is at war' and try, you buffoons! to understand what this presages!

• Above all stop bickering!

[Alexis Jacobi]

And when I re-presented the idea to you, you, once again, ignored it and only responded to a tiny and trivial snippet (quoted above) from my extremely long post.

Can you state really succinctly and briefly what your main areas of concern are? Isolate the most important elements.

[Alexis Jacobi]

It might help you to acknowledge to yourself that you're just realizing what many other people ALREADY recognized.

I have listened to a great deal of coherent critique of Trump, but also a great deal of emoted non-sense. The real issue, Lacewing, hinges on very different ideas about what America is and what it should be. There is a profound civil conflict that plays around this. And at an internal level there is political warring.

So when you say and when you imply that you 'saw' things about Trump, and that there is some base in your dislike and contempt, I do not in any way disagree. But I doubt that a) you see the larger picture of America's position today, and b) have no real interest in or investment in the actual issues that are really at play. You never dilate your views in any case. You just have belligerent emoted complaints.

You are simply wrong in your assessment, Lacewing. I did see exactly what Donald Trump was and right from the start. You can even search out what I had written on this forum. And as I said it was my hope that the popular movement that responded to Trump would gain coherency and power and would begin to organize itself. Presently, that faction, I guess you would call it traditional Right or Dissident Right, is fractured and fracturing more.

What rises now, in reaction, seems to be the "Social Democrats of America" and a populism that comes from the socialistic-communistic pole of the political spectrum. Thus the chasm only deepens, and the civil conflict will only grow more intense. It is not impossible that the ruling and controlling powers desire a managed socialistic order if that can defeat and soften (nullify) the social conflicts that make doing business more problematic and difficult. The US is a business entity and as a business social conflicts are not good for secure income.

As I said, Trump did initiate counter-measures in numerous areas that were necessary and productive. My issue is in the larger sense his manner of execution. But all these errors must be seen as part-and-parcel of a management crisis within a late-game America itself. It was all endemic even before Trump arose.

[Gary Childress]

It might help you to acknowledge to yourself that you're just realizing what many other people ALREADY recognized.

I have listened to a great deal of coherent critique of Trump, but also a great deal of emoted non-sense. The real issue, Lacewing, hinges on very different ideas about what America is and what it should be. There is a profound civil conflict that plays around this. And at an internal level there is political warring.

So when you say and when you imply that you 'saw' things about Trump, and that there is some base in your dislike and contempt, I do not in any way disagree. But I doubt that a) you see the larger picture of America's position today, and b) have no real interest in or investment in the actual issues that are really at play. You never dilate your views in any case. You just have belligerent emoted complaints.

You are simply wrong in your assessment, Lacewing. I did see exactly what Donald Trump was and right from the start. You can even search out what I had written on this forum. And as I said it was my hope that the popular movement that responded to Trump would gain coherency and power and would begin to organize itself.

What rises now, in reaction, seems to be the "Social Democrats of America" and a populism that comes from the socialistic-communistic pole of the political spectrum. Thus the chasm only deepens, and the civil conflict will only grow more intense.

As I said, Trump did initiate counter-measures in numerous areas that were necessary and productive. My issue is in the larger sense his manner of execution. But all these errors must be seen as part-and-parcel of a management crisis within a late-game America itself. It was all endemic even before Trump arose.

Do you ever take a stand on good and bad? And if so, what is good and bad to Alexis Jacobi? What do you least wish to see in the world?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Do you ever take a stand on good and bad? And if so, what is good and bad to Alexis Jacobi? What do you least wish to see in the world?

It is a topic about which I am -- is confused the word? or uncertain? Let me tell you the principle origin of my conflict and, perhaps, we can work something out. I used to be quite adamantly Zionist and pro-Israel. Why? Well one is upbringing. You could not have grown up in the Jewish community (in my case Reform and of the California variety) and not been Zionist. The establishment of Israel was, and is, still a very big deal within the Jewish Diaspora. So, what could be more of a 'good' than to have reestablished Israel? What is more 'natural' than the re-establishment right there in Judea?

But the whole idea, the entire concept, is factually unworkable in modernity. If Israel can reconstitute itself why can't the Wappinger and the Munsee Lenape people retake Manhattan? Any displaced people then, if they had enough historical memory, could then justify all sorts of reconquests. In any case, the 'real truth' about the Zionist reconquest is nothing but a study in 'straight power principles'. It was determined that Israel would be retaken. And every (Maciavellian) machination was employed, but all of it under the cover and cloak of 'righteous Jews reclaiming what is rightfully theirs!" The entire model of Zionism took the shape of a second Exodus. That was how it was 'sold' and it sold very well.

But the entire expedition turns out to be a trap. And History sets traps for Jewry. In fact, the Jewish religion is itself an idealogical trap. That is to say, Jewish self-conception or the Jewish sense of mission. You likely do not know much about this because you are not a Jew, but principally because you are not really interested in the topic.

So, it was good and very good that Jewish people in the Diaspora could recover their 'ground': a place on the planet. You know that Jewish history and Jewish identity is all bound up in statelessness, in Exile (Galut). And the European catastrophe was sort of the last straw. But again: devilish history is always setting traps for the Jewish people. So much so that many decide to abandon the mission and to assimilate.

But the real point here is: when you define what is 'good' and what is 'bad' -- what are your criteria? I know you, I have read you for years, and you (seem to me) a man twisted into knots! Horrors surround you and they plague you like ghosts. What of yourself, your nation, your people, can you justify?

So this is how it went, for me: I realized that, in fact and in truth, I could not justify the re-conquest of Palestine because, at the core of it, it was criminal. But then there is little else but criminality in the world. And that led me to think in terms of another sort of metaphysics.

In Ancient Hindu philosophy there is an ideology of statecraft where the 'fish eat fish' nature of the world is defined and understood. It is really the same as 'dog eat dog'. But larger fishes devour the smaller fishes. It is part of an established Order that, in truth, cannot be violated. So a State comes into existence and in the best of cases its ruler create a world for the populace to live in, to develop, to live and breathe and trade and worship and do all those things that humans do. If it is a peaceful and ordered society, good. But even that State has 'state interests' and it must at times expand, conquer new territories, conflict with neighbors, overtake neighbors, establish perimeters, create an army, and operate violence. This is all understood. It cannot be avoided.

So, what is the solution? It is to deputize the warrior, the police agent, the conquerer, to work in the name of the Greater Good of those people on the internal levels. Usually that deputization is a ritual and a religious act: Those who do the dirty work must obviously incur 'karma' (blame but also self-awareness of doing evil). But since they operate for the common good, their sins are, so to speak, ritually washed away. They are 'absolved'.

Ultimately, in my opinion, the philosophy that you have, such as it is, is one of self-negation. You have no right to ANYTHING! I do not really mean you-Gary, I mean a stance and outlook common today. The 'righteous' undermine their own existence! The very structure that gives them life, that gives them space, that allows them to carry on, is by its nature exactly that which I pictured in the fish-eat-fish metaphor. At the bottom is all of it is sheer violence. And the example I refer to is the primary one: all beings must hunt and devour other creatures. There is no way around it, and no way to change it. Men who prepare and till the soil and plant, displace the life that was there. Take the entire Mississippi Basin, possibly the greatest of fertile valley on the planet (second to Egypt). It was an amazing and a vast ecosystem! And Europeans came, cleared and tilled it, and created one of the greatest breadbasket that ever was created! And the nation of the United States was created and its industrial power rooted in this productivity. Was this good Gary or was this bad? The wealth of the US was based, significantly, on roping-in Africans to 'labor in the fields of the White man's will'. Now was this 'good' or was it 'bad'? Rome conquered the tribes of the (European) north and the blood flowed in rivers. But what we know as *Europe* (which was at one time 'the Jewel of the World') was created as a result. Good or bad, Gary?

[Lacewing]

I have listened to a great deal of coherent critique of Trump, but also a great deal of emoted non-sense.

I think most of us have... from various directions.

The real issue, Lacewing, hinges on very different ideas about what America is and what it should be.

THAT is ONE issue... not THE issue. If you make it THE issue, then you can make up all kinds of excuses for dismissing all else.

Another issue of crucial importance is 'WHO' is installed to facilitate the clean-up and rebalancing of a system that has become mired in corruption. You cannot reasonably hire a corrupt deviant lying clown to do that! Such a person destroys not only conventions (good and bad), but the last bit of deteriorating framework that supports us all.

Would ANY reputable company hire an 'unknown person' like Trump to revamp its business based on his visible/known history and behavior? Would any company retain him or the members of his unqualified administration as employees considering their complete dismissal of standards and rules and honesty? If a company wouldn't allow such disruption within its workforce, why are such people as this being defended as the leadership for America? It's as if... in our unfocused fervor to address a lame arm on a body, we have now cut off the other one! The ignorance is so extraordinarily obvious and on display every day. And still, people who want to protect their ego continue to make excuses for jumping onboard such a nightmarish train to Hell.

So when you say and when you imply that you 'saw' things about Trump, and that there is some base in your dislike and contempt, I do not in any way disagree.

And it goes deeper than the surface. A person's character and the dangers/implications of that can naturally be seen by intuitive observers, as well as by those not invested in or mesmerized by that person's charade.

But I doubt that a) you see the larger picture of America's position today,

I don't debate it because there is no specific position/answer. I see plenty. As I've said before, we don't all have to process the way you do, in order to notice the variables and implications in play. Thinking you know the answers... limits awareness to --> that. We have an opportunity to see beyond the absurd performance on the stage.

I credit Trump with being the cosmic fool who brought about a 'reality' so despicable, we can finally see to evolve beyond such things... if we survive.

and b) have no real interest in or investment in the actual issues that are really at play. You never dilate your views in any case.

I'm offering my perspective clearly enough, and I don't need to stand on (nor defend) some sort of platform or ideology in order to offer observations. I think that platforms and ideologies can be very blinding... so why would I use them? They're like medieval castles at war.

You just have belligerent emoted complaints.

That's just to make it fun.

Presently, that faction, I guess you would call it traditional Right or Dissident Right, is fractured and fracturing more.

What rises now, in reaction, seems to be the "Social Democrats of America" and a populism that comes from the socialistic-communistic pole of the political spectrum.

Yes, the pendulum is swinging wildly and dangerously!

How willing are any of us to say/think that the best place is in BALANCE? Or must we take up our opposite poles and insist that the other pole is in the wrong?

I would like to see freedom for people to make their own decisions for what to believe and how to be... WITHOUT imposing on others or being imposed upon. For me, it is natural and obvious to recognize that there is no single perspective or way to be. Any disrespect or ignorance of that is at the root of destroying peace for all involved. We are not all the same, and we were all rightfully born onto this planet.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Another issue of crucial importance is 'WHO' is installed to facilitate the clean-up and rebalancing of a system that has become mired in corruption.

What is the corruption that you refer to? Specifically?

Would ANY reputable company hire an 'unknown person' like Trump to revamp its business based on his visible/known history and behavior?

In a sense this is irrelevant if only because he never worked for other companies except that of his father.

It is also irrelevant because Trump ran on a specific platform, and one of the major campaign promises was that of not starting another war; opposing the DEI hyperbole; and deporting millions of people who entered illegally. That in itself was a substantial program. Trump was 'hired' by about 50% of the voting population to do specific things, and to achieve specific results. He may have achieved more than many other presidents (whose power of execution is always limited). As I told you my hope, such as it was, was that the movement he initiated would gather steam and redirect things away from the policies of Biden (which were very destructive). Presently, that 'movement' is pretty mired.

I don't debate it because there is no specific position/answer. I see plenty. As I've said before, we don't all have to process the way you do, in order to notice the variables and implications in play. Thinking you know the answers... limits awareness to --> that. We have an opportunity to see beyond the absurd performance on the stage.

This is a mouthful...but it says little or nothing.

My core argument is that America is in a very difficult position of division as to 'what it is' and 'what it is supposed to be'. I see this as central (but you may not).

I'm offering my perspective clearly enough, and I don't need to stand on (nor defend) some sort of platform or ideology in order to offer observations. I think that platforms and ideologies can be very blinding... so why would I use them? They're like medieval castles at war.

I think you have most often (over the years) offered tarted-up generalities. Your perspective is in essence contempt for a man and lots of name-calling. I find that insubstantial.

I would like to see freedom for people to make their own decisions for what to believe and how to be... WITHOUT imposing on others or being imposed upon. For me, it is natural and obvious to recognize that there is no single perspective or way to be. Any disrespect or ignorance of that is at the root of destroying peace for all involved. We are not all the same, and we were all rightfully born onto this planet.

Classic Lacewing! There is very little substance there, so nothing to 'debate'. Stay out of politics. Have you considered a career as a nursery school teacher? There you will surely have effect.

You argue with the air, Lacewing.

[seeds]

Another issue of crucial importance is 'WHO' is installed to facilitate the clean-up and rebalancing of a system that has become mired in corruption.

What is the corruption that you refer to? Specifically?

I would accuse you of trolling us with such a ridiculous question, but based on your track record in this forum, I must assume that you are being serious.

Anyway, there’s way too much over-analyzing going on here.

The simple truth...

(as I have suggested so many times in the past)

...is that the seemingly impossible event of such a psychologically damaged, overtly corrupt person such as Trump → rising to the highest level of American politics...

(again, like pus rising to the head of a festering boil)

...is the result of the natural processes of “karma” using Trump as a means by which to punish America for all of the death and destruction it has sown across the planet over the last seven or so decades.

I mean, come on now folks,...

...how many My Lai Massacres do you think we can commit,...

...or how many governments do you think we can overthrow in order to steal their nation’s resources,...

...or how many little schoolgirls do you think we can slaughter before we finally receive a stark lesson in what the old axiom...

“...You Reap What You Sow…”

...really means?
_______

[Lacewing]

Another issue of crucial importance is 'WHO' is installed to facilitate the clean-up and rebalancing of a system that has become mired in corruption.

What is the corruption that you refer to? Specifically?

It doesn't make a difference to the point I was making.

Would ANY reputable company hire an 'unknown person' like Trump to revamp its business based on his visible/known history and behavior?

In a sense this is irrelevant if only because he never worked for other companies except that of his father.

Again, you side-step and/or miss the point. That's revealing. NOBODY would hire such a person for any other job, and yet he was put into a role of such importance by some sort of mass intoxication of desperation. Not very smart hiring practices!

I don't debate it because there is no specific position/answer. I see plenty. As I've said before, we don't all have to process the way you do, in order to notice the variables and implications in play. Thinking you know the answers... limits awareness to --> that. We have an opportunity to see beyond the absurd performance on the stage.

This is a mouthful...but it says little or nothing.

You're not as smart as I thought. And you're becoming reactive. Again, revealing.

My core argument is that America is in a very difficult position of division as to 'what it is' and 'what it is supposed to be'. I see this as central (but you may not).

'What it is supposed to be' according to you isn't that interesting.

I'm offering my perspective clearly enough, and I don't need to stand on (nor defend) some sort of platform or ideology in order to offer observations. I think that platforms and ideologies can be very blinding... so why would I use them? They're like medieval castles at war.

I think you have most often (over the years) offered tarted-up generalities. Your perspective is in essence contempt for a man and lots of name-calling. I find that insubstantial.

Something has happened to you over the last few years. You've dug deeper into your hole.

You argue with the air, Lacewing.

I'm not arguing. You're projecting.

[Lacewing]

The simple truth...

(as I have suggested so many times in the past)

...is that the seemingly impossible event of such a psychologically damaged, overtly corrupt person such as Trump → rising to the highest level of American politics...

(again, like pus rising to the head of a festering boil)

Nice.

It does seem (to me) like some supernatural 'corrective process' is at work. Cleansing the toxins out of the collective system we are all part of / products of. Trumpism is like a super-virus that vigorously destroys the planet in the virus' quest to reign supreme and unchecked... foolishly destroying its host in the process!

Furthermore, the daily drama of absurdity causes me to question if this is some sort of experiment from higher powers to see how we respond to it individually and collectively. How can anything be so stupid and sustained by so many? It seems like there's something else at work here!

I'm not sure about karma... because I'm not sure we're ever supposed to be punished for being what we are. But I hope that there's an organic balancing wheel at work.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I would accuse you of trolling us with such a ridiculous question, but based on your track record in this forum, I must assume that you are being serious.

It is not a ridiculous question. I asked Lacewing to present what she understands to be the ‘corruption’ she bewails. It is a genuine and really a simple question.

...is that the seemingly impossible event of such a psychologically damaged, overtly corrupt person such as Trump → rising to the highest level of American politics...

I would agree with large parts of your assessment, and I wrote extensively in the past about Trump as the wounded, almost disfigured and rather ugly man who, if looked at in a certain way, the psychology of the nation called forth (that is a Jungian interpretation and might be psychological whimsy).

So I am with you on an aspect of your view. I think the class that I have been speaking about — middle America, flyover America, the America that had its livelihood sold out from underneath it and became impoverished (in so many senses) could be part of an agreed analysis.

...is the result of the natural processes of “karma” using Trump as a means by which to punish America for all of the death and destruction it has sown across the planet over the last seven or so decades.

That’s very interpretive and in that sense subjective projection on your part. And I realize as well that it is one of your interpretive foundations.

...or how many governments do you think we can overthrow in order to steal their nation’s resources,...

All states, and certainly all empires without exception exploit resources. It is simply part-and-parcel of the earthly realm. It can be modified I suppose, or undertaken with less brutality, but it is reality. I think you need to read and ponder what I wrote to Gary.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Something has happened to you over the last few years. You've dug deeper into your hole.

The psycho-analytical parry will not, I don’t think, result in much for you. But work with the tools you have …

No, I do not think so, I mean not in the sense that you desire to apply, like a downward descent. I think what has ‘happened’ is that I have synthesized numerous perspectives and arrived at a position that is relatively coherent.

And I also think that if ‘being in a hole’ is a real state for those of us who participate in these sorts of discussions (existential, subjective, often with religious and ethical tones and backgrounding, and always topical), the characterization ‘being in a hole’ could be applied to you. I don’t mean personally — I hope very much you feel fulfilled and properly directed — but in terms of political and sociological analysis and understanding.

I am completely willing to be further examined by you as one ‘in a hole’ however. If you are willing to be cross-examined.

Also, I do not think you develop your points, or your complaints, as fully as you could.