God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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MikeNovack
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Re: God

Post by MikeNovack »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2026 2:25 am
phyllo wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2026 2:21 am Well it turns out that Christianity is just a sect of Judaism.

Go figure. :lol:
In a sense, you aren't wrong. It's certainly more than just that, as any Jewish person will be happy to tell you; but it's not less than that. Jesus Christ came as the Messiah of Israel, the fulfilment of the promises given through the OT prophets. He didn't conceal that fact; He proclaimed it.
Well certainly Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. But it rapidly became something else, elsewhere. Very important to remember events in Judea the first 40 years. The great revolt against Rome was 66-70 CE. Quite possibly (likely?) few of these early Christians survived that. James was assassinated 69, yes? (probably by the the Zealots). So Christianity as a Jewish sect gradually ceased to exist. Some opinions found in Mishna appear to be "school of Jesus" << don't bother looking for gems -- the ones I've seen mainly commercial law* >>

* the gist of these minority opinions is to ensure the guilty party does not benefit regardless of collateral damage to the innocent party -- the majority opinions are to avoid further damage to the innocent party even if that means the guilty party gets off.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God

Post by Immanuel Can »

MikeNovack wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2026 4:38 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2026 2:25 am
phyllo wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2026 2:21 am Well it turns out that Christianity is just a sect of Judaism.

Go figure. :lol:
In a sense, you aren't wrong. It's certainly more than just that, as any Jewish person will be happy to tell you; but it's not less than that. Jesus Christ came as the Messiah of Israel, the fulfilment of the promises given through the OT prophets. He didn't conceal that fact; He proclaimed it.
Well certainly Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. But it rapidly became something else, elsewhere.
It was the promise to Abraham...that in him, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. It was inevitable that the knowledge of God would spread beyond that lone nation, even while beginning there.
Christianity as a Jewish sect gradually ceased to exist.
Christianity still owes its origin to Judaism. Those of us who know our history do not forget it.
puto
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Re: God

Post by puto »

To deny a providential God is atheism. If Spinoza was, then considered by standards of his time a heretic and an atheist. If through deductive logic, one and is only one substance, and free will is an illusion. Reading, Spinoza is like a mathematical textbook, you have the exact definition and where his logic breaks down to absolute truths. Substance is, "That which is in itself, and is conceived through itself." An attribute is, "That which the intellect perceives of substance, as constituting its essence." "That which the intellect perceives of substance, as constituting its essence." God is, "A substance consisting of infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality." Spinoza’s Dictum: As the motto of the Skeptic’s Society and Skeptic Magazine: “I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.”
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phyllo
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Re: God

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Historic Jewish Views on Christianity
Rabbi Louis Jacobs

In its very earliest days, Christianity was seen by the Jewish teachers as a Jewish heresy; its adherents were Jews who believed in the divinity of Christ [and considered Christianity a Jewish sect]. But when Christianity spread and became a world religion, with numerous converts from the Gentile world, it became a rival religion to Judaism. Christians were then seen as Gentiles not because they were Christians but because, in the main, they were, in fact, Gentiles (i.e. not Jewish).

Rabbinic Attitudes Toward Christianity

In the and Midrash, the comparatively few references to Christianity (these only appear in uncensored versions) are to this religion as a heretical sect believing in a form of dualism, God the Father and God the Son.

Typical is the comment of the late third‑century Palestinian teacher, Rabbi Abbahu, on the verse (Isaiah 44:6): “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.” As Rabbi Abbahu spells it out: “‘I am the first,’ for I have no father; ‘and I am the last,’ for I have no son, ‘and beside Me there is no God,’ for I have no brother.” Since the doctrine of the Trinity did not emerge fully until a later period, there are no references to this doctrine in the Talmud or midrash, despite far‑fetched attempts to find hints of it in these sources.

It was not until the Middle Ages that the status of Christianity (and of Islam) as a rival religion was considered from the Jewish point of view.

Medieval Attitudes Toward Christianity

Attacks on Christian dogma are found in medieval Jewish writings from the biblical commentaries of Rashi and [David] Kimhi, refuting the Christian claim that the Old Testament contains prophesies anticipating the coming of Jesus, through works of apologetics such as the Kuzari of Judah Halevi and the Faith Strengthened of [the Karaite] Isaac of Troki (d. 1593), to the records drawn up by Jews of the various disputations they had with Christians [perhaps the most famous being the disputation about the nature of the Messiah between the apostate Pablo Christiani and Rabbi Moses ben Nahman, Nahmanides, in 1263].

In these and similar works the main thrust was to deny that the Messiah had come in the person of Jesus (the world gave no evidence that this glorious age had arrived, it was frequently protested) and especially to take issue with the doctrine of the Incarnation and the Trinity.

As [the Venetian rabbi] Leon da Modena noted, it was not the doctrine of the Trinity in itself that was objectionable (after all, in the kabbalistic doctrine of the Sefirot there is much talk of three, and more, aspects of [the] Deity) but its elaboration, in which the Trinity is composed of three divine Persons, one of which became incarnate in a human being. The medieval thinkers who held Christianity but not Islam to be an idolatrous faith did so particularly because of the worship of the Cross; to bow before an icon or a crucifix was held to be akin to bowing to idols.

The basic question in practice was whether the older talmudic regulations against social intercourse and business dealings with pagans on the days of their festivals (because they might offer praise to their gods at the successful outcome of the deal) applied to Christians. With Jews living among Christians to apply these regulations would have been catastrophic, if not impossible.

The French scholars [such as Menahem Meiri, discussed below] tended to adopt casuistic arguments in order to circumvent some of the more onerous rules; they argued, for instance, that any money given by Christians to the Church is largely for the benefit of the clergy, and there are certainly no actual sacrifices of animals or birds to idols as there were in talmudic times.

Menahem Meiri [a thirteenth-century talmudist] went much further to argue that the references to pagans in the talmudic literature could not apply to what he called “people whose lives are governed by religion.” Eventually, a distinction was made, unknown in the talmudic sources, according to which Christianity did constitute idolatry for Jews but not “for them” (i.e. Christians). A Christian did not offend against the Noahide laws [the seven principles, including the rejection of idolatry, by which Judaism expects non-Jews to live] since the allows a Gentile, but not a Jew, to worship another being in addition to God.

This concept was known as shittuf (“association,” of another together with God) and the oft‑quoted legal maxim, allowing for a more liberal attitude towards Christians, is: “A Noahide is not enjoined to reject shittuf.”

Social needs obviously called forth this artificial distinction which was by no means universally accepted. As late as the end of the eighteenth century, Elijah, Gaon of Vilna, ruled that, since it is forbidden to mention the name of an idol, a Jew may refer to Jesus but never use the name Christ.

In the twentieth century, the halakhic authorities debated whether it is permitted to use an abandoned church as a synagogue, or for a Jew to give a donation to a church or even enter a church, or wear a medal in the shape of a cross. In the last instance, permission was given, on the grounds that the medal is a decoration, not an object of worship. Some authorities permitted a Jew to trade in the sale of crosses to Christians, provided these were to be worn not for purposes of worship but simply as decorations.

Modern Attitudes Toward Christianity

In modern times there has been far greater cooperation between Jews and Christians, many Jews welcoming Jewish‑Christian dialogues in which the aim of each side is to understand the position of the other, and even learn from it, without in any way moving from its own.

Some Jews believe that Judaism and Christianity have so much in common that it is permissible to speak of a Jewish-Christian tradition. But there is the strongest opposition on the part of all Jews, Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform, to the attempts by Christian missionary groups to convert Jews to Christianity. The Jews for Jesus movement is very much a fringe phenomenon and has justly been condemned by all faithful Jews as trying to introduce Christianity to Jews through the back door, so to speak.

A single contemporary Orthodox Jewish theologian in the US has argued that Judaism does not oblige Jews to reject the doctrine of the incarnation as impossible in itself. For him, Jews reject Christianity not because God could not have become incarnate in a human being, since that would compromise God’s omnipotence, but because, in fact, He did not do so in the person of Jesus.

This eccentric view is rejected by all other Jewish theologians on the grounds that God, being God, can as little become human as He can wish Himself out of existence. As Aquinas said–and he was anticipated by Jewish thinkers–it is no compromise of God’s omnipotence that He cannot do the absolutely impossible.

[British Jewish theologian] C. G. Montefiore, while insisting that a Jew cannot be at the same time a Christian, argues that some aspects of the Christian ethic are superior to the Jewish, for which he was attacked by [Zionist thinker] Ahad Ha‑Am. On the scholarly level, there have been Jewish investigations into the Jewish background of Christianity, but in a purely objective way with the theological questions seen as irrelevant to scholarship.

It would certainly be incorrect to say that the suspicions of the two religions of one another are a thing of the past. What can be said is that, in an age of greater religious tolerance, there has been a growing realization that the two have enough in common to enable them to work in harmony for human betterment.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... istianity/
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2026 12:06 pm Historic Jewish Views on Christianity
Rabbi Louis Jacobs
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... istianity/
Here's an interesting question about Judaism.

What is it?

It could be several things.

1. What present-day Jews believe.
2. What ancient Jews believed.
3. What most Jews DO believe (as a sociological fact).
4. What Jews SHOULD believe (however defined).
5. What Jews who are Reformed, Orthodox, Conservative and Hassidic believe, but only that which is common.
6. Anything that is believed by anyone who happens to be biologically a Jew.
7. What "the community" (however defined) has agreed to demand other Jews to believe.
8. What the Torah says.

And so on. Whenever we discuss what Jewishness or Judaism is, we find we're working with different and conflicting definitions. Which one should we adopt in common, in order to make the ensuing discussion coherent and free of errors of amphiboly?
puto
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Re: God

Post by puto »

Attend a Synagogue. Visit with Rabbi, and ask questions, buy a book and read it, even take a college course on Judaism. Then you can quit arguing who is right and wrong, coming to truths of the Judaic religion. Talmud: Spiritual practice and primary way of coming to know the way, and will of God. A book of holy intellectualism. Jewish law and lore. Philosophy of Religion is about truth in arguing about if this God exists then what, it is not about an argument of who is right, and wrong that is theology because the truth is found in arguing. Ten Commandments: Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, six hundred and thirteen commandments in the Torah, which is rabbinic literature, the singular Mitzvah of Mitzvot. Judaism has no founder, no leader, and no theological decision. The Semite is Arab, eastern Mediterranean, and Jewish language is classified as Semitic. Discuss with the Rabbi the Midrash: Hebrew Scripture. Discuss the Kabbalah: The Middle Ages and esoteric teaching. Begin a journey of Holiness: Separateness, religious purity. It is called the Hebrew Bible because it was written in Hebrew.
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phyllo
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Re: God

Post by phyllo »

And so on. Whenever we discuss what Jewishness or Judaism is, we find we're working with different and conflicting definitions. Which one should we adopt in common, in order to make the ensuing discussion coherent and free of errors of amphiboly?
Judaism does not accept that Jesus is divine, that Jesus is part of a Trinity, or that Jesus is Yahweh. (except maybe Jews for Jesus)

No need to go looking at definitions of Judaism.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 1:09 pm
And so on. Whenever we discuss what Jewishness or Judaism is, we find we're working with different and conflicting definitions. Which one should we adopt in common, in order to make the ensuing discussion coherent and free of errors of amphiboly?
Judaism does not accept that Jesus is divine, that Jesus is part of a Trinity, or that Jesus is Yahweh. (except maybe Jews for Jesus)

No need to go looking at definitions of Judaism.
Actually, there is. Would you say, for example, that Karl Marx's occultism and antisemitism were "Jewish," if he was? Is secularism "Jewish," just because there are secular Jews? Which form of Judaism is "Jewish": the Hassidim? The Reformed? The Orthodox? Is "Jewishness" cultural, biological or creedal, or all three, and to which are we referring on the occasions when we call something "Jewish"? How "Jewish" is Torah, if Jews don't follow it?

There are lots of questions that need to be posed.
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phyllo
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Re: God

Post by phyllo »

You can't distract from the facts.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 1:57 pm You can't distract from the facts.
:? Distract? Hardly. I'm pointing them out. It's very easy to say, "Jews believe X." But which "Jews"? And do they do so because they're Jews, or in spite of being Jews? Where is the standard of "Jewishness" to which we are referring?

If we don't know, then any statements we make will turn out to be contradicted by another case, another angle, another definition.
MikeNovack
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Re: God

Post by MikeNovack »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 3:31 pm
phyllo wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 1:57 pm You can't distract from the facts.
:? Distract? Hardly. I'm pointing them out. It's very easy to say, "Jews believe X." But which "Jews"? And do they do so because they're Jews, or in spite of being Jews? Where is the standard of "Jewishness" to which we are referring?

If we don't know, then any statements we make will turn out to be contradicted by another case, another angle, another definition.
Again, the term "the Jews" refers to BOTH "the people of a particular religion" and "the people of a tribe".
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God

Post by Immanuel Can »

MikeNovack wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 6:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 3:31 pm
phyllo wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2026 1:57 pm You can't distract from the facts.
:? Distract? Hardly. I'm pointing them out. It's very easy to say, "Jews believe X." But which "Jews"? And do they do so because they're Jews, or in spite of being Jews? Where is the standard of "Jewishness" to which we are referring?

If we don't know, then any statements we make will turn out to be contradicted by another case, another angle, another definition.
Again, the term "the Jews" refers to BOTH "the people of a particular religion" and "the people of a tribe".
That's two different things, of course. So when somebody says, "Jews believe...," which group do you understand them to mean? Do they mean Rabbi Schneerson? Or Howard Stern? Or Karl Marx? Or Moses? They all believe rather different things, don't they? But they're technically "in the tribe."
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phyllo
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Re: God

Post by phyllo »

They all believe different things about the divinity of Jesus? Some of them believe Jesus is Yahweh and some don't?
puto
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Re: God

Post by puto »

A religion is beliefs, explanations, and values, conveyed by meaning and ritual. Spirituality, then, “Heart-Knowledge”-Validity of certainty and experience of non-institutional framework. Judaism is a worldly religion because of community, ethics, and justice. Judaism is an expression of spirituality. Judaism searches from a variety of religions because it is not spiritually sufficient.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2026 11:41 am They all believe different things about the divinity of Jesus? Some of them believe Jesus is Yahweh and some don't?
We were merely discussing the justification for saying, "Jews believe X." We always have to ask, "Which Jews, and how Jewish is their belief?" Depending on what one thinks "Jewishness" is, one is going to get very different answers.
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