IC please clarify for us

[Janoah]

Says the guy who believes the talking snake story.

Well, let's see. So far, we have no advance from "science" on that.

The search is on for a snake with vocal chords—ha!

Look how Mamdani speaks so captivatingly

[Will Bouwman]

Look how Mamdani speaks so captivatingly

Oh, so you are captivated.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, let's see. So far, we have no advance from "science" on that.

The search is on for a snake with vocal chords—ha!

Look how Mamdani speaks so captivatingly

Yeah...NY isn't doing so well, lately. But Socialists always speak like honey and deliver misery. In 100% of the cases, that's how it's been. So NY is getting what NY deserves for voting stupidly.

[MikeNovack]

Yeah...NY isn't doing so well, lately. But Socialists always speak like honey and deliver misery. In 100% of the cases, that's how it's been. So NY is getting what NY deserves for voting stupidly.

Really? You actually know about the history of socialist city governments in the US? That they did badly? Perhaps the best documented (and so easy for you to access) would be Reading PA. But you could also look at "municipal socialism" in general (at one time or other, about 200 municipalities had socialist governments). My reason for suggesting Reading is more for the likelihood of your surprise when you see WHY they fell out of favor (not going to be what you expect).

[Immanuel Can]

Yeah...NY isn't doing so well, lately. But Socialists always speak like honey and deliver misery. In 100% of the cases, that's how it's been. So NY is getting what NY deserves for voting stupidly.

Really? You actually know about the history of socialist city governments in the US?

We all know, and about Socialist governments worldwide. The US has never had broad-scale Socialism; only had limited, localized, quasi-Socialist "experiments," not national-scale Socialism. But Socialism's ambitions are always bigger than that.

Do you actually want us think that if you did the same goofy thing in the US that other countries have done, that you could make it work? That's what everybody who supported Socialism in history has thought. They were all verifiably wrong.

And Mamdani's little experiment is just proving that case again.

If you believe the "honey," you'll find yourself in a sticky mess.

[Immanuel Can]

Yeah...NY isn't doing so well, lately. But Socialists always speak like honey and deliver misery. In 100% of the cases, that's how it's been. So NY is getting what NY deserves for voting stupidly.

Really? You actually know about the history of socialist city governments in the US?

This guy does: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FawycgB0FDE

[MikeNovack]

Really? You actually know about the history of socialist city governments in the US?

This guy does: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FawycgB0FDE

But "socialism wasn't the topic of that guys presentation.

You do realize that not California, not Texas, not any state has ever had a socialist administration. You were supposedly talking about CITIES. I gave you suggestions to research, but since you have CA on your mind, the city history to look at would be Riverside.

[Immanuel Can]

Really? You actually know about the history of socialist city governments in the US?

This guy does: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FawycgB0FDE

But "socialism wasn't the topic of that guys presentation.

Cali has one of those same types of quasi-Socialist governments. The subject was such cases in the US. But we can expand the question again, to include what all Socialist governments have done, wherever they've been in charge.

I have no problem with that.

But Socialism advocates certainly should.

[Janoah]

This guy does: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FawycgB0FDE

But we can expand the question again, to include what all Socialist governments have done, wherever they've been in charge.

By the way, what do you think about China?

[Immanuel Can]

But we can expand the question again, to include what all Socialist governments have done, wherever they've been in charge.

By the way, what do you think about China?

I don't think this is Mike's question, is it? Is it yours? I can't tell, because you got your attributions crossed up. But I'll answer it.

China is, on the one hand, a Socialist nightmare of totalitarian violations of human rights; and on the second hand, a perfect illustration of how the only viable economics comes from returning to free markets, even though they are labelled by the regime as "Red Capitalism." Without free markets, the so-called "economic miracle" that has been China would never have happened; until then, the regime was doing the same as all Socialist regimes seem to do -- running the economy into the ground.

But China is perhaps also the worst of both worlds, because it has all the excesses attributed to the worst of industrializing "capitalism," such as rampant, uncontrolled pollution, and also the worst of totalitarian viciousness...now bolstered by the tools of the advanced technological revolution, that now empowers the oppressive citizen-monitoring and "social credit" tyranny.

[MikeNovack]

Cali has one of those same types of quasi-Socialist governments. The subject was such cases in the US.

I have no problem with that.
But Socialism advocates certainly should.

Do you not see our inconsistency? On one hand you want to insist socialists are all revolutionary communists and on the other you treat LIBERAL DEMOCRATS as "quasi-Sicualist"

There actually were real socialist governments at one time or other in about 200 US cities. I suggested a few for you to look up.

[Immanuel Can]

Cali has one of those same types of quasi-Socialist governments. The subject was such cases in the US.

I have no problem with that.
But Socialism advocates certainly should.

Do you not see our inconsistency? On one hand you want to insist socialists are all revolutionary communists and on the other you treat LIBERAL DEMOCRATS as "quasi-Sicualist"

This isn't true. Got anything else?

[promethean75]

Imagine if the Left didn't exist. Capitalist economies would have blown like a pressure cooker decades ago. Imagine not making healthcare cheaper, not raising minimum wage, not building inexpensive housing, not subsidizing failing private businesses to prevent mass unemployment, etc. How much chaos would there be then? The middle working class are all already maxed out on credit and in all manner of debt, so what would happen? They'd all go homeless, stay low wage workers, and die from a common cold?

The best thing capitalists have going for them is that there IS the Left. The Left provides relief for the capitalists by mitigating their parasitic effects on the working class. It isn't an antagonist to the Right as alleged. It's a support group, in fact.

This would be embarrassing to a conservative if he/she weren't a windbag.

As many times as it's been said that pure unchecked capitalism hasn't happened, isn't happening, and will never happen, the Right still insists that everything would be great if it did... when, in fact, everything would be unequivocally worse.

Capitalism wouldn't have gotten this far, and here they are hollerin' that it would be even better without the existence of the Left. Bro, I'd be embarrassed. Like looksmaxxing bro at the bar in Good Will Hunting with the pony tail.

[Immanuel Can]

Imagine if the Left didn't exist. Capitalist economies would have blown like a pressure cooker decades ago. Imagine not making healthcare cheaper, not raising minimum wage, not building inexpensive housing, not subsidizing failing private businesses to prevent mass unemployment, etc.

That wasn't produced by Socialism, I hate to tell you. It was produced by the "capitalism" you hate so much. The prosperity that allowed the raising of the poor to the middle class came as a product of industrialization...the same industrialization that Marx claimed would explode in revolution.

Marx never raised anybody, not even himself. And Socialism has actually had a very limited and late role in the improvements that were already taking place by other means. The hospitals, the prison reform, alcoholism treatment, public education, most universities..all started by religious people, and out of a spirit of charity, not by Socialist revolutionary means.

The best thing capitalists have going for them is that there IS the Left.

The opposite is true, in fact. Whenever the Left has obtained power, they've crashed the economy and started killing people, just to prove they were right to be as wrong as they were. And when they've been on the road to disaster, like Russia and China have been, their only recourse has proved to be to turn back to free markets.

[promethean75]

Bro, i know all that. I'm saying that the fact that there is a democratic Left at all demonstrates a) the existence of a major ideological division in society and b) a conflict of interests between two or more classes in society.

These circumstances aren't produced by the Left, boss. It's the Left that is produced by these circumstances.

You're awarness of socialism extends as far as confusing the disasters in Russia and China as real Marxist societies, and having that confusion reinforced by the top-down 'Socialism for the Rich' practiced today... which you mistake for something Marx, Lenin and Trotsky created.

Meanwhile, while we're at fixing the shit capitalism creates, check out how much of the 2008 economic recovery the government was responsible for and what kinds of things it did to stabilize an economy that had already crashed and was about to burn.

And i remember that bitch, too. I was lucky to make $15 per hr framing houses if i could even find a job. Construction industry was crashed.

Love the irony. Because the bourgeoisie had turned real-estate into an investment scheme was a guy unable to find a job building houses. If the guy had just built the houses and sold em himself to the poor bastards (now, instead) locked in 35-year mortgages and eliminated the real-estate firms altogether, the bastards wouldn't be (as) poor and the guy wouldn't be out a job.

This is what happens when you allow the cops to defend with force capitalists whom you give the houses you built to in exchange for wages less than they are worth when the price is finally artificially inflated by he the useless third-party capitalist profiter and then sold to the poor bastards.