pre-persons

[MikeNovack]

Of course. But just because we "can" doesn't mean that they "will." It just means they could have -- however, it would certainly imperil the excuse "the baby couldn't have survived, anyway."

But ethically, will abortionists reconsider their murders?

So what would it change in their ethics? Nothing.

Interesting reasoning:
If A places B in a position where C could (and does) kill B, you consider that A has killed B?
<< A removes fetus from one woman's womb and places in another womb (biological or otherwise) and then C performs an abortion (biological womb) or pulls the plug (artificial) you say A has killed the fetus!!!!!

And you really need to reword/rethink. I doubt ANY abortionists consider what they are doing murder, so how could they reconsider?

[Immanuel Can]

Of course. But just because we "can" doesn't mean that they "will." It just means they could have -- however, it would certainly imperil the excuse "the baby couldn't have survived, anyway."

But ethically, will abortionists reconsider their murders?

So what would it change in their ethics? Nothing.

Interesting reasoning...

It's very simple. Abortionists will keep doing what they are doing, because they already know what they're doing is wrong. They crossed that line long ago.

[MikeNovack]

It's very simple. Abortionists will keep doing what they are doing, because they already know what they're doing is wrong. They crossed that line long ago.

Uh ... WHY do you believe that? Why do you think abortionists believe they are doing something wring?

Do you assume we are all in agreement with when life begins or in triage situations? This isn't even a religious vs secular matter as religions disagree.

[Immanuel Can]

It's very simple. Abortionists will keep doing what they are doing, because they already know what they're doing is wrong. They crossed that line long ago.

Uh ... WHY do you believe that?

Because the whole purpose of abortion is to kill a baby. They know it. That is exactly what they want it to do, and that is the only reason they do it.

People aren't stupid. They know that the endgame is...no baby. And it's a thing they've decided already they're willing to do.

[Lacewing]

Abortionists will keep doing what they are doing, because they already know what they're doing is wrong.

You don't know what you're talking about. Abortionists aren't some group who all think the same. I know you have a hard time with this concept. If I'd needed to have an abortion when I was younger, I would have... and I did NOT view it as wrong, and I don't view it as wrong now. So, you see, you don't know how people think.

Unwanted pregnancy has been a fact of life as long as there have been human beings -- and women AND men have dealt with it in all sorts of ways. Reality isn't confined to your narrow, self-righteous view... YOU just think it is.

[Immanuel Can]

Abortionists will keep doing what they are doing, because they already know what they're doing is wrong.

You don't know what you're talking about. Abortionists aren't some group who all think the same.

Yes, they are. They all think the baby should die. And they're all willing to do it.

[Lacewing]

Abortionists will keep doing what they are doing, because they already know what they're doing is wrong.

You don't know what you're talking about. Abortionists aren't some group who all think the same.

Yes, they are. They all think the baby should die. And they're all willing to do it.

You will believe what you want because it serves you... even when people tell you that you're NOT reflecting the truth for them.

[Immanuel Can]

You don't know what you're talking about. Abortionists aren't some group who all think the same.

Yes, they are. They all think the baby should die. And they're all willing to do it.

You will believe what you want because it serves you... even when people tell you that you're NOT reflecting the truth for them.

This doesn't involve belief. It's very, very simple: there are people who want babies dead. They do it. And they do it so the babies will be dead.

There's nothing to believe. There are only the facts.

[Lacewing]

Yes, they are. They all think the baby should die. And they're all willing to do it.

You will believe what you want because it serves you... even when people tell you that you're NOT reflecting the truth for them.

This doesn't involve belief.

There are only the facts.

Your belief and your viewpoint don't equate to facts.

It's very, very simple: there are people who want babies dead.

That's your melodramatic interpretation that appears to get you off in some twisted way.

Here's what's very, very simple: Many people don't think of early term pregnancies as BABIES. Reproduction is a natural process all throughout the natural world since the beginning of all life, and nature has always dealt with it in MANY ways.

Here's a fact: Your narrow, self-righteous view does not reflect reality for everyone, regardless of what you believe or think.

[Fairy]

Yes, they are. They all think the baby should die. And they're all willing to do it.

You will believe what you want because it serves you... even when people tell you that you're NOT reflecting the truth for them.

This doesn't involve belief. It's very, very simple: there are people who want babies dead. They do it. And they do it so the babies will be dead.

There's nothing to believe. There are only the facts.

I agree with that statement. People already know that a pregnancy is the potential for a living conscious being known as a baby.That’s a fact, yes. No one alive can deny their factual aliveness, this factual obviousness doesn’t require a belief to be true.

To want a potential consciousness dead is to deliberately will the potential of a consciousness to not be actualised, which goes against what is already this immediate innate force that is continuous and non conscious. And so it’s an intentional action to want babies dead.

[Immanuel Can]

You will believe what you want because it serves you... even when people tell you that you're NOT reflecting the truth for them.

This doesn't involve belief.

There are only the facts.

Your belief and your viewpoint don't equate to facts.

Nobody's do. The facts are the facts. One can accept them, or one can reject them, at one's own peril. But one cannot change them by wishing, avoiding or redefining. One cannot avoid reality.

[Immanuel Can]

You will believe what you want because it serves you... even when people tell you that you're NOT reflecting the truth for them.

This doesn't involve belief. It's very, very simple: there are people who want babies dead. They do it. And they do it so the babies will be dead.

There's nothing to believe. There are only the facts.

I agree with that statement. People already know that a pregnancy is the potential for a living conscious being known as a baby.That’s a fact, yes. No one alive can deny their factual aliveness, this factual obviousness doesn’t require a belief to be true.

So what they know they are killing is a baby. She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory. The woman already CHOSE to create her. Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created.

And the baby does not belong to the mother to dispose of.

[MikeNovack]

So what they know they are killing is a baby. She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory. The woman already CHOSE to create her. Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created.

And the baby does not belong to the mother to dispose of.

"She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory." POTENTIALLY has this. MAYBE (and maybe requiring intervention depending on those genetics and maybe not regardless of intervention again depending on those genetics)

"The woman already CHOSE to create her." OH? We have not seen you say abortion OK if the woman did not so choose. Be clear about this and what you mean by "chose". Describe various scenarios.

"Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created." REALLY? You believe BOTH of these things? You believe that the overwhelming majority of women who have an abortion WANT to have an abortion? You believe that in the overwhelming majority of cases she voluntarily got pregnant? Like for the above, describe scenarios.

[Immanuel Can]

So what they know they are killing is a baby. She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory. The woman already CHOSE to create her. Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created.

And the baby does not belong to the mother to dispose of.

"She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory." POTENTIALLY has this.

No, actually has it. Biologically, there isn't any doubt.

"The woman already CHOSE to create her." OH?

Yep. Statistically, 99% of the cases are of unforced sex. Less than 1% are of the incest-rape-other varieties.

But let's play along with false statistics, instead. Let's suppose it was 75% and 25%, say. If I conceded you the 25%, would you concede me that 75% of abortions are baby murders? Probably not. You'd want the 100% -- all abortions to be allowed. But if so, all you're doing is leveraging the 1% to try to invent an excuse for the 99%. You're exploiting the victims to excuse more murders. And does that make you a good person, or an actual advocate for the 1%? I think not.

Women do have choice, in 99% of all abortion cases...however, these same women just often use it irresponsibly, and then want to use it even more irresponsibly, by murdering their babies. So much for "choice" arguments.

Meanwhile, the man gets NO choice. If he creates a baby in the same consensual way the woman does, and she decides to murder his child, he can't say one thing about it, according to the law. So where is the men's "choice" argument?

You believe that the overwhelming majority of women who have an abortion WANT to have an abortion?

If they don't, then how did they end up at the clinic? Were they kidnapped and dragged there? Were they transported while asleep, maybe on a magic carpet? No, they walked in the door and asked for it.

Are you denying the reality of their choice?

[MikeNovack]

A) Discuss --- you CHOSE to get injured in a car accident because you willingly got into a car.

B) Discuss --- You WANT to pay $2000 to get your car repaired (the choice, of course is between getting the car repaired or doing without the car)

Yes IC, most women getting an abortion do not WANT to do that.

Look at what you are saying. Willingness to have sex is NOT the same as wanting to have a baby. You are arguing "A". Having an abortion is not wanting one. You are arguing "B"