Evil and Christians

[Immanuel Can]

Would Christianity/religion even exist without the concept of evil?

That would seem a speculative question, rather than one that can be readily answered. Christianity might have existed, but it might have existed in a somewhat different form, and with somewhat different concerns, than the one we know does. It's really impossible to speculate on that.

However, different "religions" have different accounts of what "evil" might be. Does secularism have ANY? It seems not...at least, none that is predicated upon secularism itself.

We can try.

What shall we have for a concise statement of secularism? Would it be, "There are no gods" (Atheism), or "God is not a relevant concept" (Laplace), or "God is dead," (Nietzsche), or...something else? I don't know how a secularist is going to want his view to be represented.

Any suggestions? How would you summarize the basic claim of your own secularism? Maybe that will help us find the first premise.

[Lacewing]

Would Christianity/religion even exist without the concept of evil?

It's really impossible to speculate on that.

You speculate on a great many things that you don't and can't have full awareness of.

It's not that difficult to consider: If the concept of evil plays a necessary role in the teachings of Christianity and its bible, then what would Christianity be without that element? In other words, how important or crucial is the dynamic of good vs. evil for Christianity? What would be the draw or motivation otherwise? Secularists are naturally capable of demonstrating good and compassionate character and behavior without religion. So, is the threat/fear of evil, part of the perceived relevance of Christianity/religion?

[Immanuel Can]

Would Christianity/religion even exist without the concept of evil?

It's really impossible to speculate on that.

You speculate on a great many things that you don't and can't have full awareness of.

I don't think I do. I'm fascinated by the suggestion you know what I "don't and can't have full awareness of." Can you expand?

It's not that difficult to consider: If the concept of evil plays a necessary role in the teachings of Christianity and its bible, then what would Christianity be without that element?

It's not certain that evil is necessary. According to Scripture, there was a time when it was not present, at least in the affairs of early man. We really don't know what would have been the case without it. And about that, I really don't speculate.

Secularists are naturally capable of demonstrating good and compassionate character and behavior without religion.

As in the Soviet Union, or Maoist China, or North Korea, perhaps? There have certainly been avowedly secular regimes. Their history is not one of "goodness" and "compassion," though.

[Lacewing]

I'm fascinated by the suggestion you know what I "don't and can't have full awareness of." Can you expand?

Why would you be fascinated to consider that you have speculated on things you don't and can't have full awareness of? What is it that you think you DO have full awareness of?

It's not certain that evil is necessary.

Well, then it's strange that it's such a focus among so many Christians based on reading the bible and what they hear in church. Seems to be an important message throughout Christianity's history.

Secularists are naturally capable of demonstrating good and compassionate character and behavior without religion.

As in the Soviet Union, or Maoist China, or North Korea, perhaps?

That's really all your mind and awareness are capable of considering?

There's a perfect example of what you don't and (apparently) can't have full awareness of.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm fascinated by the suggestion you know what I "don't and can't have full awareness of." Can you expand?

Why would you be fascinated...

Because I'd love to know the source of your knowledge about that. Do tell me more.

Secularists are naturally capable of demonstrating good and compassionate character and behavior without religion.

As in the Soviet Union, or Maoist China, or North Korea, perhaps?

That's really all your mind and awareness are capable of considering?

Every one of them was a passionately secular government. So it's clear secularists are quite capable of the opposite, too.

What element of secularism requires secularists to opt for the former, not the latter? Or are they all just free to choose to be good or evil as it suits them?

You know the answer. You won't say it, but you know it.

[Lacewing]

What element of secularism requires secularists to opt for the former, not the latter? Or are they all just free to choose to be good or evil as it suits them?

Like Christians?

[Immanuel Can]

What element of secularism requires secularists to opt for the former, not the latter? Or are they all just free to choose to be good or evil as it suits them?

Like Christians?

Like everybody. As I said elsewhere, there are no "specially good" people. Human beings are always a mixed bag.

But Christians have this: that they have a code, based on their most fundamental ontological beliefs, that guides them as to how to choose the right over the wrong -- and if or when any of them fall short of that code, they know they've done evil and can repent; and when they've done well, they can thank God for making it possible for them.

What have secularists got? How does their secularism help inform them of which alternative they must take?

Again, you won't answer...but only because you know the answer.

[Lacewing]

But Christians have this: that they have a code, based on their most fundamental ontological beliefs, that guides them as to how to choose the right over the wrong

As if they need that? How f****** stupid and evil do you think human beings are?

-- and if or when any of them fall short of that code, they know they've done evil and can repent;

Repent?

and when they've done well, they can thank God for making it possible for them.

You can't even see or acknowledge how ridiculous that is.

You make Christians sound like a bunch of powerless crying babies that need to report to Daddy for spankings or praise.

What have secularists got? How does their secularism help inform them of which alternative they must take?

THEY HAVE ALL THE GOOD QUALITIES AND AWARENESS THAT ANY HUMAN BEING IS NATURALLY CAPABLE OF WITHOUT NEEDING TO GO ASK SOMEONE OR READ A STORY BOOK.

Again, you won't answer...

I just did, again... whether you are smart enough to realize it or not.

[Immanuel Can]

But Christians have this: that they have a code, based on their most fundamental ontological beliefs, that guides them as to how to choose the right over the wrong

As if they need that? How f****** stupid and evil do you think human beings are?

Evil enough to create the Holocaust, the Holomodor, Hollywood, and various other Hells on earth.

What have secularists got? How does their secularism help inform them of which alternative they must take?

THEY HAVE ALL THE GOOD QUALITIES AND AWARENESS THAT ANY HUMAN BEING IS NATURALLY CAPABLE...

Yes. Like the Third Reich, or the USSR, or Mao's China, or North Korea, or Cambodia's Killing Fields. We've seen what they do.

Again, you won't answer...

I just did...

You didn't realize it wasn't any kind of answer at all. Secularism does not require anybody to be good. Nothing in it provides any such premise.

[Lacewing]

...

You cannot have a conversation in which you aren't recognized as providing the answer that applies to everyone -- and you don't realize how ridiculous that is. And you're dishonest enough to skew in whatever way suits you. I'm done wasting time on you.

[Dubious]

But Christians have this: that they have a code, based on their most fundamental ontological beliefs, that guides them as to how to choose the right over the wrong

As if they need that? How f****** stupid and evil do you think human beings are?

Evil enough to create the Holocaust, the Holomodor, Hollywood, and various other Hells on earth.

What have secularists got? How does their secularism help inform them of which alternative they must take?

THEY HAVE ALL THE GOOD QUALITIES AND AWARENESS THAT ANY HUMAN BEING IS NATURALLY CAPABLE...

Yes. Like the Third Reich, or the USSR, or Mao's China, or North Korea, or Cambodia's Killing Fields. We've seen what they do.

You conveniently forgot to mention all the Christian atrocities which happened throughout its history especially during the early modern period. The incredible cruelties Christians inflicted on each other and the number of innocent people tortured and killed is a matter of proven historical record.

Of course, you're never going to mention or include the most murderous years of Christian history. As always, it's only the secular instances which are evil according to your catechism, never the super-shit beliefs and crimes religion has perpetrated on people since the First Mating Couple!

[Immanuel Can]

As if they need that? How f****** stupid and evil do you think human beings are?

Evil enough to create the Holocaust, the Holomodor, Hollywood, and various other Hells on earth.

THEY HAVE ALL THE GOOD QUALITIES AND AWARENESS THAT ANY HUMAN BEING IS NATURALLY CAPABLE...

Yes. Like the Third Reich, or the USSR, or Mao's China, or North Korea, or Cambodia's Killing Fields. We've seen what they do.

You conveniently forgot to mention all the Christian atrocities

Name one.

The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the pogroms, the Wars of Religion the concordat...all trace back to one particular organization. But that organization does a whole bunch of things that are directly contradictory to the Bible. So in what sense would they be "Christian," since they are the product of manifest disobedience, not obedience, to the creed they profess?

You've got no case. There simply aren't any "Christian atrocities," since atrocities are forbidden to Christians. Inasmuch as anybody did an "atrocity," to that same extent, what they did was demonstrably not "Christian."

However, how do you answer for the most homicidal creed in all of human history -- by orders of magnitude -- which has been Atheism? If you imagine that being a Christian could cause problems, then it's amazing that you don't recognize the at least 140 million people Atheist regimes killed in just the last century?

But Atheism has no account of evil in it. So it's not even possible for an Atheist to coherently accuse anybody else of doing evil. If he takes his own Atheism seriously, he'd have to think there's no such thing. (Of course, most Atheists don't even believe their own Atheism; and you can see that, because they persist in believing in moral values, which their own ideology would deny can exist.)

[Dubious]

Evil enough to create the Holocaust, the Holomodor, Hollywood, and various other Hells on earth.

Yes. Like the Third Reich, or the USSR, or Mao's China, or North Korea, or Cambodia's Killing Fields. We've seen what they do.

You conveniently forgot to mention all the Christian atrocities

Name one.

The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the pogroms, the Wars of Religion the concordat...all trace back to one particular organization.

Correct! That "organization" is called Christianity. You answered your own question!

[Immanuel Can]

You conveniently forgot to mention all the Christian atrocities

Name one.

The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the pogroms, the Wars of Religion the concordat...all trace back to one particular organization.

Correct! That "organization" is called Christianity.

Except it's not. It has its own name. And even that organization is responsible for only a tiny fraction of the people killed in the various wars, purges and such of the past...some fragment of about 4.3%, which it divides with every other religion on earth, except one...Islam. But even Islam accounts for only another 4.3% in its own right...and climbing slowly.

It's Atheists that have killed over 140 million in the last century. Nobody else is within orders of magnitude of that total. It's the single most fatal belief in human history.

[Gary Childress]

Name one.

The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the pogroms, the Wars of Religion the concordat...all trace back to one particular organization.

Correct! That "organization" is called Christianity.

Except it's not. It has its own name. And even that organization is responsible for only a tiny fraction of the people killed in the various wars, purges and such of the past...some fragment of about 4.3%, which it divides with every other religion on earth, except one...Islam. But even Islam accounts for only another 4.3% in its own right...and climbing slowly.

It's Atheists that have killed over 140 million in the last century. Nobody else is within orders of magnitude of that total. It's the single most fatal belief in human history.

So, since true Christianity is inherently good, only non-Christian behavior can be the origin of evil? Therefore, Christians are not responsible for evils such as the Crusades, the Inquisitions, etc. Is that correct? It's atheists as an "organization" that have been responsible for all the evil in the world. If they would just adhere to Christianity, then the world would be much better. Is that correct?