Is Evolution random or non-random

[Immanuel Can]

It's certainly a fascinating question and would definitely be an earth-shaking discovery. Upon happening, I can see a lot of squabbles over who God likes more and why.

That would be futile. Surely God would have his own view of that.

But what else would be gained if God didn't openly come out and say to each and everyone what he wanted or expected?

Not much. And this is why I say it depends on the sort of God who exists.

If it were, for example, the Deistic god, then it would change some things. Our lives might still have a reason for us existing, for example, which could not be said if the Deistic god didn't exist. But we would all be equally perplexed about things like why he created us, what we were supposed to do, whether good and evil are important, and so on, because, being a sort of "absentee landlord," he'd not be coming back, not expecting anything of us, and not particularly interested in where we end up. His existence would be mostly unimportant to us.

What if there is a God and God is a sort of "absentee landlord"?

Then, as the above.

...what in our world suggests that God is not an "absentee landlord"?

You already pointed it out: God would have to speak. He'd have to say who He is, and what He wants from us. Absent that, there's no point even in guessing. And the situation would be complicated if there were false theories and false claims of such around, as well.

God would have to speak in such a form that a reasonable searcher could find it and be convinced of its authenticity.

[phyllo]

What if there is a God and God is a sort of "absentee landlord"?

What's worse? An "absentee" god or a god who keeps interfering in the universe?

[Immanuel Can]

What if there is a God and God is a sort of "absentee landlord"?

What's worse? An "absentee" god or a god who keeps interfering in the universe?

Well, "interfering," as a word choice, would be jumping to the conclusion it wasn't His creation in the first place. Perhaps it's you and I who keep "interfering" with it. And our preferences regarding that, since we are very short-lived beings, might not be all that weighty.

[phyllo]

I'm not performing miracles or bypassing the laws of nature.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm not performing miracles or bypassing the laws of nature.

True: you're not. So?

[phyllo]

So I'm not interfering the same way as an interfering god.

[Immanuel Can]

So I'm not interfering the same way as an interfering god.

You're missing the point.

You're assuming you're in a story in which either you or the created world is the main character. You accuse God of "interfering," because you think any miracles or other actions would "interfere" in what's legitimately going on by its own steam.

But that's not the story you're in, actually. You're in a story of God creating the world and intending it for His purposes. Your indifference to Him is the "interference" in the drama. You're not the main character here, nor is the natural world -- and you should know it, because both you and the natural world are contingent beings. That is, something was going on here before either of you existed, and it will go on after you're gone.

The world will exist when you don't. And it existed before you did. And God existed before the universe did.

So what is the "interference" here? That's the profound question.

[phyllo]

I don't even get to be the main character in my own life?

What a shit show.

[Impenitent]

you can always rewrite the plot

-Imp

[Immanuel Can]

I don't even get to be the main character in my own life?

Well, we all feel like we're the main characters in our own lives. That's because we live from behind our own eyes, as if we are the center of things. And we tend to value things for their relationship to ourselves. And, in addition, it suits our egos and our interests to act as if that's how it is.

But if we think carefully, we realize that we did not arrange our own arrival here. And the world does not care all that much about our self-focus, as real as it is to us. And much goes on that is valuable but has no particular relevance to us. And one day, the world will go on without us, very much as if we had never existed.

I'm sure our great-great grandfathers believed they were the center of things, too: do we know their names? Do we really no anything about those proud men? Where are they now?

So no, we are players in a drama that is bigger than us. It has other characters and bigger themes than the life of you or me. But the good news is that we can realize it, and it will make us better people for realizing it. Maybe we won't be so proud, so self-absorbed, so absurdly confident in our own importance, and other people will find us kinder and more sympathetic. So it will make us better human beings. That would be good for any of us.

It would also be reality.

[phyllo]

If that's what you choose

[Immanuel Can]

If that's what you choose

You can't choose your birth. You can choose your death, sometimes. But your choice can't add a split second to your lifespan.

You can't choose what the world was when you arrived. You can't stop it by leaving. You can't choose most of the things that happen while you're here.

How, then, can your choice put you at the control center of life? Of is that no more than something we're inclined to wish were the case, but never is?

[Gary Childress]

So no, we are players in a drama that is bigger than us. It has other characters and bigger themes than the life of you or me. But the good news is that we can realize it, and it will make us better people for realizing it.

Sure. I would never argue otherwise. Who would? I'm sure most of us realize the world is bigger than us. So far, you are not saying anything that most are unaware of. As far as making us better people for realizing the world is bigger than us, that's possible in the sense that being a "better person" in the eyes of another person may involve not being an inconvenience to them.

[Immanuel Can]

So no, we are players in a drama that is bigger than us. It has other characters and bigger themes than the life of you or me. But the good news is that we can realize it, and it will make us better people for realizing it.

Sure. I would never argue otherwise. Who would? I'm sure most of us realize the world is bigger than us. So far, you are not saying anything that most are unaware of.

I agree.

But then, why do they live as if they don't believe it?

[Gary Childress]

So no, we are players in a drama that is bigger than us. It has other characters and bigger themes than the life of you or me. But the good news is that we can realize it, and it will make us better people for realizing it.

Sure. I would never argue otherwise. Who would? I'm sure most of us realize the world is bigger than us. So far, you are not saying anything that most are unaware of.

I agree.

But then, why do they live as if they don't believe it?

Because, like anyone else, I don't like getting screwed by the world. So I complain.