What is truth?

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

thomyum2
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2026 12:06 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by thomyum2 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed May 20, 2026 11:56 pm If the meaning of "objective" is to be independent of an observer and "subjective" is to be dependent upon an observer, then I think, if Immanuel Kant was right about phenomena and noumena, then it could be arguably fair to say that a conscious being cannot utter a non-subjective truth to another conscious being. EVERYTHING we say ultimately rests on our conscious experiences, and conscious experience is not objective. It cannot be observed by an outside observer or transmitted from one human to another except through indirect means.

I can't transmit MY pain (the pain that I am experiencing in a given moment) to another human being, but I seem to be able to transmit the information that I am feeling pain to another human being, and the other human being can assume that my feeling of pain is reasonably similar to his or her feeling under similar circumstances. In that sense, all observers transmit indirect reports about what they experience upon the assumption that outside observers experience the same things the same way as the subject of the report does.

It could be that when humans agree on something, it ultimately amounts to two human beings saying, "yes, I see it that way too." or "Yes, I've had that happen before too."

The idea that we are communicating something objectively is an illusion created by two observers who are in sync with each other. And we can never step outside of ourselves to verify if something is an illusion until we experience it for ourselves.

I can think that jumping off a 10-story building is a bad idea based on inference. But I can't objectively know it's a bad idea until I test it out. At the point before I test it out, it would be subjective knowledge, not objective knowledge. But because something is subjective knowledge doesn't mean it isn't true. It's probably very true that jumping off a 10-story building would be a bad idea for me. But it could be argued that it's not objective knowledge for me.
Thanks for your thoughts, Gary. I'm only really just beginning my exploration of Kant's philosophy, so I could be way off here, but I'll offer some thoughts.

As Roger Scruton points out in the passage I quoted a couple posts above, we are able to have objective knowledge about the world - we are able to learn things about the world that go beyond just what we know from our own perspective - almost all experience confirms this. The world is more than just what I, as an individual, subjectively experience. Although much knowledge does trace back to individual subjective experiences, those experiences are 'synthesized' to create objective knowledge. I like to think of the analogy of using our two eyes to see. Each eye has a slightly different perspective on whatever we are looking at. But our minds are able to combine these two individual perspectives to create a more 'objective' view that allows us to see depth - we effectively synthesize a 3-dimensional picture from these two perspectives. So I think objective knowledge is like that - multiple perspectives come together to form an objective picture of reality. That's how we are able to distinguish between reality and illusion - if everything was subjective, how could we do that?

But even so, it's not an absolute picture - we can never get outside of the universe and look down on it. Objective knowledge has limits.

From what I understand about Kant though, is that he recognized that while we can have objective knowledge of the world, there are elements of that knowledge that come from the structure of cognition itself rather than from the world itself - elements such as time and space are cognitive structures that we impose on the world in order to make sense of it, rather than being objective features of the world independent of our minds. The analogy frequently used here is that if we wear red glasses, then the world looks red. So it's not that we can have no objective knowledge, it's just that we have to understand that objective knowledge always is shaped by the nature of our mind. The noumenon - the 'world as it is in itself', free of any conceptual organization by the human mind - is not accessible to us.

Like I said, I'm relatively new to Kant, so perhaps others here will correct me or add clarifications.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 28980
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: What is truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

A very thoughtful reply. I'll try to do it some justice.
thomyum2 wrote: Wed May 20, 2026 9:03 pm Thanks for your detailed explanations of your position here. I’ve let this sit for a day to try to absorb it, but I find myself at odds with a number of things you’ve said.
That's fine. It's more interesting that way.
1) In your first part, you’re saying that the truth value of a proposition is determined by whether or not that proposition corresponds to reality, and that much I follow. But I’m getting tripped up when you say ‘my subjective belief’. Insofar as beliefs take the form of propositions, it can be objective (it’s a belief about something in reality – the shape of the world – which is external and public) but still false. So I wouldn’t call it 'subjective' just because it’s false.
Well, we'll have to be precise about what makes a belief subjective, and what makes it objective. I can, for instance, have a subjective belief that I'm about to eat a vanilla ice cream cone. And maybe I am. In that case, the subjective impression is not false. But if, when I bite into the ice cream, I find out it's not vanilla but white chocolate or lemon chiffon, then my subjective impression was false.

Either way, the decisive factor was when my subjective impression came into contact with the real world...the objective world.
2) I’m struggling with your idea of certainty of truth. I’ve always thought of certainty as a subjective matter – an internal ‘feeling’ of confidence in our own knowledge, not something that is objectively measurable - so it strikes me as odd to apply a subjective criterion to objective knowledge.
Certainty...absolute certainty...is no more than an internal feeling. The truth is that none of us actually has it. But we can have very-high-percentage confidence in some things, and for us, that serves the crucial purpose of letting us know what is worth expecting or believing or risking in the objective reality we inhabit.
Given that we don’t, and can’t, have a full picture of reality, there’s really no yardstick against which to evaluate or quantify the certainty of the knowledge that we do have.
I'm suggesting we have at least approximations of that. It is true that nobody has the perfect yardstick; but we do know when something is "about a yard." And for us, that's good enough.
Your statement that all human knowledge is probabilistic is followed by examples which all involve predicting the future,
I don't think it was. For instance, I spoke about confidence in gravity, which is very much a present reality as well as a past phenomenon.
I don’t think it’s possible to assign a probability of accuracy to most of our beliefs.
I don't think any of us has any choice. We all have to do it, anyway.

Take this morning. You got out of bed, and put your feet on the floor. What was your level of confidence that the floor would support your weight? Would you say it was low or high? But you could not know for certain the floorboards were not rotten, or that some nefarious person had not tunnelled under you at night, or that this morning would be different from every other morning you'd experienced, in that the floor would suddenly disappear.

But you had faith it would be there for your feet...so much faith, you probably didn't hesitate to plant your feet on the floor. Yet is it entirely impossible for that floor to fail you in some way? Clearly not...it could have happened. But you were high-level confident it wouldn't. And you were right.

But what about tomorrow morning?
3) You said in the earlier post that aesthetic statements are subjective because they are judgments, but it seems to me also that to claim that proposition is true is also to make a judgment, albeit a different kind of judgment than an aesthetic one. If we are to consider ‘truth’ as a property of statements or propositions, based on their correspondence with reality, then truth is also not separable from the context of the use of the proposition – when, where and to whom it is said, and how the statement is understood by both the speaker and the receiver. So it seems to me that ‘correspondence with reality’, while conceptually simple, it not
I'm not quite grasping your objection here...you seem to be onto something, but I can't tell what it is, quite. Can you develop it, or maybe give an example of what your concern is?
I’ll go back to my original point, that objective and subjective are better understood in terms of being properties of propositions in terms of whether or not the facts necessary to determine the truth can (in principle, at least) be accessed externally and observed publicly or are private only to the individual. E.g. “The table is round (objective) but it looked oval to me when I saw it (subjective)”; or Beethoven’s 5th symphony is in the key of C minor (objective) and it’s a great piece of music (subjective). ‘Objective’ refers to qualities that are retained by the object from one individual or observations to the next; ‘Subjective’ are qualities that are held by the subject, i.e. within the observer only. Entangling these two terms with concepts of judgments and truth and reality seems to me to just create confusion.
I agree.
Incidentally, I happened to read this passage by Roger Scruton earlier this week in his introductory work on Kant and I think he articulates this difficult question very nicely and succinctly here:
The world is objective because it can be other than it seems to me.... I can have knowledge of the world as it seems, since that is merely knowledge of my present perception, memories, thoughts, and feelings. But can I have knowledge of the world that is not just knowledge of how it seems? To put the question in slightly more general form: can I have knowledge of the world that is not just knowledge of my own point of view? Science, common sense, theology, and personal life all the possibility of objective knowledge. If this supposition is unwarranted, then so are almost all the beliefs that we commonly entertain.
This seems to me to get back to the original point.

What "seems to me" is an epistemological question. But "what actually is," is an ontological one. As human beings, what we find is that our "seemings" and the ontological reality to which they refer can be different. This is the case in my ice cream example: it "seems" to be vanilla, but it's actually white chocolate. Unfortunately for us humans, what "seems" to us is never quite certain. We have to venture our own calculations of probability in relation to the propositions or "seemings" we experience, and live with the results.

In that sense, we are creatures of faith. "Faith" is not what its detractors have made of it: it's a universal human faculty, and a necessary one, and even a desirable one. All of us "place faith" in various things, whether it's our bedroom floor, our ice cream cone, or the word of our teachers, or the existence of a purpose in the universe. We can't avoid it, because we are living beings, fallible ones, ones that sometimes get things wrong, but hopefully get them more right, and we are all risking ourselves on various life projects and intentions, the success of which is never guaranteed or secured to us in advance.

We are not creatures of certainty. We do not possess the truth, but only estimate our proximity to it...sometimes rightly, sometimes not so rightly. But we cannot pretend that any of us has absolute certainty. That ideal is not possible for the kind of creatures we are. We never have enough information to obtain it.

Good thoughts. See if you can clear up number 3 for me, if you'd be so kind.
Gary Childress
Posts: 12786
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: It's my fault

Re: What is truth?

Post by Gary Childress »

thomyum2 wrote: Thu May 21, 2026 1:34 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed May 20, 2026 11:56 pm If the meaning of "objective" is to be independent of an observer and "subjective" is to be dependent upon an observer, then I think, if Immanuel Kant was right about phenomena and noumena, then it could be arguably fair to say that a conscious being cannot utter a non-subjective truth to another conscious being. EVERYTHING we say ultimately rests on our conscious experiences, and conscious experience is not objective. It cannot be observed by an outside observer or transmitted from one human to another except through indirect means.

I can't transmit MY pain (the pain that I am experiencing in a given moment) to another human being, but I seem to be able to transmit the information that I am feeling pain to another human being, and the other human being can assume that my feeling of pain is reasonably similar to his or her feeling under similar circumstances. In that sense, all observers transmit indirect reports about what they experience upon the assumption that outside observers experience the same things the same way as the subject of the report does.

It could be that when humans agree on something, it ultimately amounts to two human beings saying, "yes, I see it that way too." or "Yes, I've had that happen before too."

The idea that we are communicating something objectively is an illusion created by two observers who are in sync with each other. And we can never step outside of ourselves to verify if something is an illusion until we experience it for ourselves.

I can think that jumping off a 10-story building is a bad idea based on inference. But I can't objectively know it's a bad idea until I test it out. At the point before I test it out, it would be subjective knowledge, not objective knowledge. But because something is subjective knowledge doesn't mean it isn't true. It's probably very true that jumping off a 10-story building would be a bad idea for me. But it could be argued that it's not objective knowledge for me.
Thanks for your thoughts, Gary. I'm only really just beginning my exploration of Kant's philosophy, so I could be way off here, but I'll offer some thoughts.

As Roger Scruton points out in the passage I quoted a couple posts above, we are able to have objective knowledge about the world - we are able to learn things about the world that go beyond just what we know from our own perspective - almost all experience confirms this. The world is more than just what I, as an individual, subjectively experience. Although much knowledge does trace back to individual subjective experiences, those experiences are 'synthesized' to create objective knowledge. I like to think of the analogy of using our two eyes to see. Each eye has a slightly different perspective on whatever we are looking at. But our minds are able to combine these two individual perspectives to create a more 'objective' view that allows us to see depth - we effectively synthesize a 3-dimensional picture from these two perspectives. So I think objective knowledge is like that - multiple perspectives come together to form an objective picture of reality. That's how we are able to distinguish between reality and illusion - if everything was subjective, how could we do that?

But even so, it's not an absolute picture - we can never get outside of the universe and look down on it. Objective knowledge has limits.

From what I understand about Kant though, is that he recognized that while we can have objective knowledge of the world, there are elements of that knowledge that come from the structure of cognition itself rather than from the world itself - elements such as time and space are cognitive structures that we impose on the world in order to make sense of it, rather than being objective features of the world independent of our minds. The analogy frequently used here is that if we wear red glasses, then the world looks red. So it's not that we can have no objective knowledge, it's just that we have to understand that objective knowledge always is shaped by the nature of our mind. The noumenon - the 'world as it is in itself', free of any conceptual organization by the human mind - is not accessible to us.

Like I said, I'm relatively new to Kant, so perhaps others here will correct me or add clarifications.
Well, you might be more knowledgeable about Kant than I am. I'm a relative novice on Kant. However, it seems to me that the very fact (as stated above) that we wear "tinted glasses" (apply categories of the understanding) means we don't truly possess objective knowledge of the world around us. We may have "relatively reliable" knowledge to serve our purposes, but it's not objective; it's not coming from an observer-neutral perspective. I think if we define objectivity as a God 's-eye view of the world, then we lack objectivity. If we define objectivity as reliable knowledge, then some subjective knowledge is also equally reliable.
popeye1945
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by popeye1945 »

"Well, you might be more knowledgeable about Kant than I am. I'm a relative novice on Kant. However, it seems to me that the very fact (as stated above) that we wear "tinted glasses" (apply categories of the understanding) means we don't truly possess objective knowledge of the world around us. We may have "relatively reliable" knowledge to serve our purposes, but it's not objective; it's not coming from an observer-neutral perspective. I think if we define objectivity as a God 's-eye view of the world, then we lack objectivity. If we define objectivity as reliable knowledge, then some subjective knowledge is also equally reliable.[/quote]

We do not experience objective reality because objective reality is, in fact, ultimate reality, a place of no things, a field of unmanifested energies. What an organism experiences is not reality; what an organism experiences is the state of its ever-changing, ever-altered biological state in its constant state of being played as if the energies were playing biological forms like instruments, and the melody it plays on its biological instruments is the creature's apparent or everyday reality. In this way, all organisms are reactive creatures; there being in fact no such thing as human action, there being only human reactions, as is so with all organisms. All structures and systems considered objective are but our common biological readouts of the experiences of a common biology, such that one can inform another of an area of a mountain range and be sure the subject will have at that location the same biological readout of the energies at that location. Humanity will not evolve intellectually or emotionally until it discovers its true nature, that of a resonating pattern being played by the energies that surround it. In this reality, organisms, including humanity, are not agents in the world; they are, but a functional part of a whole that cannot be directly experienced in its entirety. We are given by experience a narrowed field of a dualist environment, which is, in and of itself, a highly functional illusion. Truth is experience, and is true to the biology doing the experiencing; it is not infallible, which is why it is said that to the individual, experience is truth, while to the collective, it is agreement, in both cases, truth is subjective evaluation.
popeye1945
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by popeye1945 »

If you're interested in aesthetics, I recommend John Dewey's " Art as experience."
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5755
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

raw_thought wrote: Tue May 12, 2015 3:29 am The common sense understanding of truth is the correspondence theory of truth. From now on referred to as CTT.
If the CTT is true,what does it refer to? Another CTT? Depending on your perspective that is a tautology or an infinite regress. So what is truth?
PS;The CTT is the theory that a proposition is true if it corresponds to a fact.
Actuality!
popeye1945
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by popeye1945 »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed May 27, 2026 10:47 pm
raw_thought wrote: Tue May 12, 2015 3:29 am The common sense understanding of truth is the correspondence theory of truth. From now on referred to as CTT.
If the CTT is true,what does it refer to? Another CTT? Depending on your perspective that is a tautology or an infinite regress. So what is truth?
PS;The CTT is the theory that a proposition is true if it corresponds to a fact.
Actuality!
Actuality depends upon the individual or collective of individuals, and their subjective experience, for truth is true to the biology doing the experiencing, and apparent reality is a biological readout.
Truths are an emergent quality of the energies surrounding one and the alterations/changes those energies create in one's standing state of that biology. The CTT always has to be evaluated by subjective biological consciousness, singular or plural. So, truth is fallible and tentative, dependent upon perception and the judgment of that perception, for even when it is at odds with physical reality, it can and is true to the biology doing the experiencing and judging.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5755
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 12:25 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed May 27, 2026 10:47 pm
raw_thought wrote: Tue May 12, 2015 3:29 am The common sense understanding of truth is the correspondence theory of truth. From now on referred to as CTT.
If the CTT is true,what does it refer to? Another CTT? Depending on your perspective that is a tautology or an infinite regress. So what is truth?
PS;The CTT is the theory that a proposition is true if it corresponds to a fact.
Actuality!
Actuality depends upon the individual or collective of individuals, and their subjective experience, for truth is true to the biology doing the experiencing, and apparent reality is a biological readout.
Truths are an emergent quality of the energies surrounding one and the alterations/changes those energies create in one's standing state of that biology. The CTT always has to be evaluated by subjective biological consciousness, singular or plural. So, truth is fallible and tentative, dependent upon perception and the judgment of that perception, for even when it is at odds with physical reality, it can and is true to the biology doing the experiencing and judging.
No it doesn't!


"actuality
noun
ac·​tu·​al·​i·​ty ˌak-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē ˌak-shə-
plural actualities
Synonyms of actuality
1
: the quality or state of being actual
2
: something that is actual : fact, reality"

Actuality, is in fact the state of being. No humans are required to define it, in fact they only tend to selfishly pervert it. It exists unto itself, it is the universe that created everything, it was long before we, it created us, we are in fact star stuff. We are the most arrogant animal on the planet to believe even for a second that we decide anything beyond our own foolish and selfish nature, our own twisted sense of 'our' things due to 'our' fears. We're sick to think we matter in the greater scheme of things. A super nova, GONE; a black hole, GONE, a gamma ray burst, GONE, A Nuclear war, GONE, GONE, GONE!!! The list is endless, PFOA's (forever chemicals), micro plastics, Plasticizers (endocrine disruptors), etc, etc, etc!!! No doubt it's thousands of things that make your definitions insignificant. Yep the stupidest animal on the planet and all for the temporary power of gold, due to FEAR!!!
popeye1945
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by popeye1945 »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2026 4:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 12:25 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed May 27, 2026 10:47 pm
Actuality!
Actuality depends upon the individual or collective of individuals, and their subjective experience, for truth is true to the biology doing the experiencing, and apparent reality is a biological readout.
Truths are an emergent quality of the energies surrounding one and the alterations/changes those energies create in one's standing state of that biology. The CTT always has to be evaluated by subjective biological consciousness, singular or plural. So, truth is fallible and tentative, dependent upon perception and the judgment of that perception, for even when it is at odds with physical reality, it can and is true to the biology doing the experiencing and judging.
No it doesn't!


"actuality
noun
ac·​tu·​al·​i·​ty ˌak-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē ˌak-shə-
plural actualities
Synonyms of actuality
1
: the quality or state of being actual
2
: something that is actual: fact, reality."

Actuality is, in fact, the state of being. No humans are required to define it; in fact, they only tend to selfishly pervert it. It exists unto itself, it is the universe that created everything, it was long before we, it created us, we are in fact star stuff. We are the most arrogant animal on the planet to believe even for a second that we decide anything beyond our own foolish and selfish nature, our own twisted sense of 'our' things due to 'our' fears. We're sick to think we matter in the greater scheme of things. A supernova, GONE; a black hole, GONE, a gamma ray burst, GONE, A Nuclear war, GONE, GONE, GONE!!! The list is endless, PFOA's (forever chemicals), microplastics, Plasticizers (endocrine disruptors), etc, etc, etc!!! No doubt it's thousands of things that make your definitions insignificant. Yep, the stupidest animal on the planet and all for the temporary power of gold, due to FEAR!!!

Actuality is a rather obscure concept when looked at closely. When you speak of actuality, are you thinking of your apparent reality, your everyday reality, "Something that is actual: fact, reality." However, your everyday reality is not reality; you do not experience reality. What you do experience is how reality alters/changes the standing state of your biological nature, your body being your interface with said reality, what is called ultimate reality, the energy forces around you. It is your body you experience, not reality, your apparent reality being a biological readout of the changes that are constantly occurring. Your apparent reality is real only to the biology experiencing those changes. Science presently says that what you consider fact is made of things that are not considered real, ultimate reality is a place of no things, unmanifested energies. There is truth only to living creatures, or biological consciousness, for in the absence of that consciousness, the physical world, if even there, is meaningless. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, and the only source of meaning in the world. Truth, like any meaning whatsoever, is biologically dependent.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5755
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 4:36 am
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2026 4:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 12:25 pm

Actuality depends upon the individual or collective of individuals, and their subjective experience, for truth is true to the biology doing the experiencing, and apparent reality is a biological readout.
Truths are an emergent quality of the energies surrounding one and the alterations/changes those energies create in one's standing state of that biology. The CTT always has to be evaluated by subjective biological consciousness, singular or plural. So, truth is fallible and tentative, dependent upon perception and the judgment of that perception, for even when it is at odds with physical reality, it can and is true to the biology doing the experiencing and judging.
No it doesn't!


"actuality
noun
ac·​tu·​al·​i·​ty ˌak-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē ˌak-shə-
plural actualities
Synonyms of actuality
1
: the quality or state of being actual
2
: something that is actual: fact, reality."

Actuality is, in fact, the state of being. No humans are required to define it; in fact, they only tend to selfishly pervert it. It exists unto itself, it is the universe that created everything, it was long before we, it created us, we are in fact star stuff. We are the most arrogant animal on the planet to believe even for a second that we decide anything beyond our own foolish and selfish nature, our own twisted sense of 'our' things due to 'our' fears. We're sick to think we matter in the greater scheme of things. A supernova, GONE; a black hole, GONE, a gamma ray burst, GONE, A Nuclear war, GONE, GONE, GONE!!! The list is endless, PFOA's (forever chemicals), microplastics, Plasticizers (endocrine disruptors), etc, etc, etc!!! No doubt it's thousands of things that make your definitions insignificant. Yep, the stupidest animal on the planet and all for the temporary power of gold, due to FEAR!!!

Actuality is a rather obscure concept when looked at closely. When you speak of actuality, are you thinking of your apparent reality, your everyday reality, "Something that is actual: fact, reality." However, your everyday reality is not reality; you do not experience reality. What you do experience is how reality alters/changes the standing state of your biological nature, your body being your interface with said reality, what is called ultimate reality, the energy forces around you. It is your body you experience, not reality, your apparent reality being a biological readout of the changes that are constantly occurring. Your apparent reality is real only to the biology experiencing those changes. Science presently says that what you consider fact is made of things that are not considered real, ultimate reality is a place of no things, unmanifested energies. There is truth only to living creatures, or biological consciousness, for in the absence of that consciousness, the physical world, if even there, is meaningless. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, and the only source of meaning in the world. Truth, like any meaning whatsoever, is biologically dependent.
Yes it is obvious or manifest.

Your usage (But notice the highlighted words): Something that appears to be true, real, or factual based on initial evidence or visual observation, though it may or may not be proven true upon deeper investigation.
And you've proven nothing.

That you can't see electrons or the furthest galaxy or sense that you really can't touch anything or that color is only a reflection is inconsequential. None of that is required for your life on planet earth. You sense exactly what you need to sense to survive at this particular stage of evolution. If we survive ourselves, we may develop additional senses that can understand more of the actuality. Actuality is not dependent upon our knowledge of it's completeness. Before our existence, nothing that we know of, experienced any of the actuality. Which only means that it didn't exist for us. Possibly for something else.

We are the top animal of the universal creation. We are in fact a combination of many of those things that stars created through fusion. Hydrogen being the beginning and all the other elements due to fusion, simply the numbers of protons neutrons and electrons. The universe and all that it entails caused us to develop, (evolve), into what we all are, because of what this planet is made. We can never be separate from the universe because we are a part of it. It is within us. That is the truth. The truth is all that is, everything that is of, and the, universe. It's all there is. Thus all that it is, is the truth, and that we are of the universe, we are the truth. That us humans as reporters of the universe, (the truth) can falsify the truth, is the truth. That is, that what we report can, not be the truth, which doesn't change the truth. Because the truth is the actuality of the universe. That humans can lie has nothing to do with the truth, except that it's true that we can lie. No one has their own truth. They can only ever report the truth falsely or truthfully. Sometimes because they don't know the truth, they only believe something is the truth. Sometimes because they falsify the truth purposely for selfish gain. And that they can do so is the truth. Am I hammering this in enough times so that you're capable of finally getting it?

What ever the truth is, it is not necessarily how we report it, it exists objectively, it is not subjective. And of course since this is absolutely true, there is a difference between mans reported world and the world in and of itself, which is the actuality. That there is light, we have eyes. That there is sound, we have ears. That there is mass, we have touch, That there is water, we are animated. That there is oxygen, we can breath. Of course all this came with time and many permutations over millennia. From the simplest of micro organisms, to this complicated form of today, is by grand design of the universe, the only way we can be, given those things that came to exist here, the only successful permutation of changes, on this planet, that could be successful in such as this current state of change is, is the actuality, the current absolute truth of all things universal.

There is no detachment of animals or plants from this absolutely true universe. We are intrinsically connected. We are the actuality, the truth. This is a symbiotic biosphere, where everything is connected, as one thing with many parts.
popeye1945
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by popeye1945 »

SphereOfBalance,

One can only know a world on a subjective level; there is no other way of knowing. You do not experience reality; what you do experience is the alterations, read changes that reality affects upon the standing state of your biology. What you do experience are these ever-changing alterations; you experience them, and they are collectively called apparent reality, or your everyday reality. It is a biological readout. It is as if the energies that surround you are playing you like an instrument, and the melody it plays upon you is your apparent reality. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, on a subjective level. So, truth is experience, the experience of your body. Your body is your mind's first idea, and it's interface to the world. Just as there is no such thing as sound or color in what is called ultimate reality, so there are no objects in ultimate reality, for ultimate reality is composed of the energies that surround you, unmanifested energies constantly altering your state or the condition of your biology. If one wishes to experience the world differently, all one needs to do is intentionally alter one's own biology, for experience is always true to the biology doing the experiencing. Something to keep in mind: in the absence of subjective consciousness/life, the world is meaningless; indeed, it doesn't exist at all. The world of objects is biologically dependent.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5755
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: What is truth?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2026 1:10 am SphereOfBalance,

One can only know a world on a subjective level; there is no other way of knowing. You do not experience reality; what you do experience is the alterations, read changes that reality affects upon the standing state of your biology. What you do experience are these ever-changing alterations; you experience them, and they are collectively called apparent reality, or your everyday reality. It is a biological readout. It is as if the energies that surround you are playing you like an instrument, and the melody it plays upon you is your apparent reality. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, on a subjective level. So, truth is experience, the experience of your body. Your body is your mind's first idea, and it's interface to the world. Just as there is no such thing as sound or color in what is called ultimate reality, so there are no objects in ultimate reality, for ultimate reality is composed of the energies that surround you, unmanifested energies constantly altering your state or the condition of your biology. If one wishes to experience the world differently, all one needs to do is intentionally alter one's own biology, for experience is always true to the biology doing the experiencing. Something to keep in mind: in the absence of subjective consciousness/life, the world is meaningless; indeed, it doesn't exist at all. The world of objects is biologically dependent.
Incorrect! You speak as if we are separate from the universe. We are of the universe, the Universe is us. And that is the Reality, the truth, the actuality. We sense exactly as we should, as we need, as we met the call of the universe. The animal of the universe can sense exactly as the universe dictates. We are made of Star Stuff, exactly as Carl Sagan said. The only things that can exist are that which are on the complete periodic table, and as such it is all the actuality, the truth of all things!
Advocate
Posts: 3505
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: What is truth?

Post by Advocate »

Truth = the weight of evidence. (see chart below) It cannot be more than the evidence currently available and it cannot be less than is sufficient for whatever purpose you're trying to use it for. The Truth is whatever replicates continuously. Logic is rigorously discovered relationships that always replicate, and is therefore indistinguishable from Objective, Transcendent Truth. A truth is an instance of The truth - a fact or a perspective.

Knowledge is Sufficiently Justified Belief, to accept a particular fact or take a particular action. It is not JTB bc that is not possible, and not necessary. If you have sufficiency, there's no reason for more, even if there's more available.
Sufficiency = 51% but bc certainty is only exact at the poles, it is actually a range which must average over 51% ( +/- an upward adjustment relative to the width of that range ( dependent on the number of total and expected unknown variables ).
#SpiritualGeometry

Any questions?

0 ignorance (certainty that you don't know)
1 found anecdote (assumed motive)
2 adversarial anecdote (presumes inaccurate communication motive)
3 collaborative anecdote (presumes accurate communication motive)
4 experience of (possible illusion or delusion)
5 ground truth (consensus Reality)
6 occupational reality (verified pragmatism)
7 professional consensus (context specific expertise, best practice)
8 science (rigorous replication)
<-- empirical probability \ logical necessity -->
9 math, logic, Spiritual Math (semantic, absolute)
10 experience qua experience (you are definitely sensing this)
Dubious
Posts: 4718
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by Dubious »

...that which we seek to know and not merely imagine. In that respect, truth is opposite to dogma which is usually claimed as infallible. In spite of claiming truth as something final, it seldom completes its own circle in finalizing itself. There's hardly any truth which isn't infringed by another leading question mark.
popeye1945
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is truth?

Post by popeye1945 »

Truth is experience until proved an illusion or delusion. Remember, biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, the only source of meaning in the world.
Post Reply