The Hour of Vance

[MikeNovack]

IC, I was responding to Wizard's TIME LINE.

Listing a bunch of things to look up to see their DATES. Not trying to make a case good or bad but just EXISTENCE (prior to WWII)
Some of those from the prior CENTURY

But yes, with you also having an EXISTENCE issue. You are jumping ahead to claim I am defending these components of "leftism, socialism, communism". I may well be willing to do so (you are not wrong about that) but we haven't gotten there yet, still on whether they EXIST.

For you, my "homework" assignment would be to research the "kibbutz" movement. Lot's of material available. I agree, unimportant on the worlds stage (all four movements together total less than a hundred communes). But of ideological significance as communes interacting with the environment around them "free market" << they are proof that model is possible >>

If you don't want to call that ideology "communist" (or "socialist"), what term do you want to use? NOTE -- what the four do NOT have in common you don't want in your definition of them. One of the four "religious", three "secular. One of the four having a strong connection to what you think of as "communist", three not.

[Immanuel Can]

IC, I was responding to Wixard's TIME LINE.

Listing a bunch of things to look up to see their DATES. Not trying to make a case good or bad but just EXISTENCE (prior to WWII)

The timeline's not significant, really. We all know Socialism existed before WW2. Heck, Marx himself never came within half a century of seeing WW2...or within three decades of seeing WW1, either...so how could it have appeared later? But it doesn't help any part of the case for Socialism. It just shows that Socialism is an older, bad idea.

There's no reason to talk about Socialism except to avoid the historically tragic mistake of believing in it at all.

[phyllo]

There is no reason to hijack another thread with socialism rants.

[accelafine]

The correct historical figure to compare Trump to at present is not really Hitler. It's King Cnut (not a typo), who ruled an empire surrounding the North Sea including much of Scandinavia and Britain.

Legend has it that King Cnut's many sycophantic advisers would lavish endless praise on him, even going so far as to call him the commander of the tides, such was his rule over the sea.

In this, the 11th century viking ruler had much in common with Trump, who now routinely stages events where his army of arse-licking toads perform their rituals of cringeworthy worship.

The difference between them though is that Cnut was legendary for being wise enough to realise this was bullshit, and that he couldn't tell the sea what to do. So he stood by the water's edge and commanded the tide to go out, but it ignored him and he got his toes wet.

Trump apparently believes it all, and demands further helpings of debasing arsewash from his pathetic cronies, who all compete to win his favour with gold encrusted but meaningless prizes such as the America First award, the “Champion of Beautiful, Clean Coal”, and of course, the coveted "Fifa Peace Prize".

Cnut was short of advisers who were willing to tell him the truth about his limited powers, so he forced them to become honest. Trump has surrounded himself with advisers who will only tell him he is the very best ever in all categories, but he forces them to compete to tell him more of what he wants to hear. That's why he thinks he can just assassinate foreign leaders to win wars.

So just another bog-standard US president then. Did you loathe Dubya and Obama too?

[Immanuel Can]

For you, my "homework" assignment would be to research the "kibbutz" movement.

Too late. I already know about them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_crisis

But you're going to try to say that since there were kibbutzim, however flawed and financially unworkable they turned out to be, that Socialism is good and would work on a national scale? I can't wait to hear that argument.

But of ideological significance as communes interacting with the environment around them "free market" << they are proof that model is possible >>

Of course it's possible for an impractical Socialist project to be sustained by it tapping into the avails of despised "capitalist" enterprises. Lots of places have done that, though the Socialist part is never financially viable or solvent and perpetually is on life-support from free enterprise. But once the cow the Socialists are milking is dead, they can't sustain themselves at all.

Socialism is like an adolescent that won't leave the basement, and spends all her time hating her parents for providing her means.

Let's look at the total Socialist state, without the parasitism on free enterprise. Let's see how that idea has worked out.

[Walker]

The basic Playbook
https://img.patriotpost.us/01KJQN79X8K8 ... dpr=2&q=50

[FlashDangerpants]

The correct historical figure to compare Trump to at present is not really Hitler. It's King Cnut (not a typo), who ruled an empire surrounding the North Sea including much of Scandinavia and Britain.

Legend has it that King Cnut's many sycophantic advisers would lavish endless praise on him, even going so far as to call him the commander of the tides, such was his rule over the sea.

In this, the 11th century viking ruler had much in common with Trump, who now routinely stages events where his army of arse-licking toads perform their rituals of cringeworthy worship.

The difference between them though is that Cnut was legendary for being wise enough to realise this was bullshit, and that he couldn't tell the sea what to do. So he stood by the water's edge and commanded the tide to go out, but it ignored him and he got his toes wet.

Trump apparently believes it all, and demands further helpings of debasing arsewash from his pathetic cronies, who all compete to win his favour with gold encrusted but meaningless prizes such as the America First award, the “Champion of Beautiful, Clean Coal”, and of course, the coveted "Fifa Peace Prize".

Cnut was short of advisers who were willing to tell him the truth about his limited powers, so he forced them to become honest. Trump has surrounded himself with advisers who will only tell him he is the very best ever in all categories, but he forces them to compete to tell him more of what he wants to hear. That's why he thinks he can just assassinate foreign leaders to win wars.

So just another bog-standard US president then. Did you loathe Dubya and Obama too?

It is not normal for the leader of any democracy to solicit such neutered slavering subordination as Trump does and you know that perfectly well.

Your whataboutism is rejected, neither of those other presidents ever got their anuses publicly rimmed by their entire cabinet in the way Trump does on an increasingly frequent basis.

[FlashDangerpants]

I wish it were that easy.

When 2028 rolls around, and it's JD Vance versus Gavin Newsom for Presidential Election of the United States ...the Far-Left will paint JD Vance in the exact same way they painted Donald Trump. So the Far-Left hasn't gone away. In fact they'll become much, much worse.

If he spends the next three years in Trump's shadow, just basking in Trump's unpopularity as the President of Peace who started the war that made everyone sad and poor, that's going to be rather easy isn't it? If he deposes the syphilitic old loon, ends the wars and returns to normality, it will be harder for them. So chop chop.

[accelafine]

The correct historical figure to compare Trump to at present is not really Hitler. It's King Cnut (not a typo), who ruled an empire surrounding the North Sea including much of Scandinavia and Britain.

Legend has it that King Cnut's many sycophantic advisers would lavish endless praise on him, even going so far as to call him the commander of the tides, such was his rule over the sea.

In this, the 11th century viking ruler had much in common with Trump, who now routinely stages events where his army of arse-licking toads perform their rituals of cringeworthy worship.

The difference between them though is that Cnut was legendary for being wise enough to realise this was bullshit, and that he couldn't tell the sea what to do. So he stood by the water's edge and commanded the tide to go out, but it ignored him and he got his toes wet.

Trump apparently believes it all, and demands further helpings of debasing arsewash from his pathetic cronies, who all compete to win his favour with gold encrusted but meaningless prizes such as the America First award, the “Champion of Beautiful, Clean Coal”, and of course, the coveted "Fifa Peace Prize".

Cnut was short of advisers who were willing to tell him the truth about his limited powers, so he forced them to become honest. Trump has surrounded himself with advisers who will only tell him he is the very best ever in all categories, but he forces them to compete to tell him more of what he wants to hear. That's why he thinks he can just assassinate foreign leaders to win wars.

So just another bog-standard US president then. Did you loathe Dubya and Obama too?

It is not normal for the leader of any democracy to solicit such neutered slavering subordination as Trump does and you know that perfectly well.

Your whataboutism is rejected, neither of those other presidents ever got their anuses publicly rimmed by their entire cabinet in the way Trump does on an increasingly frequent basis.

Right, because US presidents aren't fawned over and surrouned by sycophants 24/7 I had the impression that he got less of that. You must have better access to what goes on behind closed doors. I just find your double standards sickening. Dubya was a mass murdering psychopath who destroyed the world, yet he got barely any criticism and he's now off enjoying his retirement playing golf and hanging out with his celebrity friends.

[FlashDangerpants]

So just another bog-standard US president then. Did you loathe Dubya and Obama too?

It is not normal for the leader of any democracy to solicit such neutered slavering subordination as Trump does and you know that perfectly well.

Your whataboutism is rejected, neither of those other presidents ever got their anuses publicly rimmed by their entire cabinet in the way Trump does on an increasingly frequent basis.

Right, because US presidents aren't fawned over and surrouned by sycophants 24/7 I had the impression that he got less of that. You must have better access to what goes on behind closed doors. I just find your double standards sickening. Dubya was a mass murdering psychopath who destroyed the world, yet got barely any criticism and he's now off enjoying his retirement playing gold and hanging out with his celebrity friends.

Ok then. Watch this https://youtu.be/pz4kSB3UI78?si=N1LsGU6wjua0gDlu it's just a meeting where Trump's Deputy Chief of Staff absolutely goes to town, heaping praise on Trump for inheriting low crime rates from Biden, after which mister Trump turns to Kash Patel, who is supposed to be director of the FBI, and challenges him to "try and top that" ... but luckily Kash Patel is entirely able to put his head all the way up in that butt. Experience such whimsy as...

You are inspiring the nation and law enforcement to come up and wear the badge and wear the colors of this country and safeguard our men and women for generations to come. This is an enduring mission, Mr. President, because you have made it enduring. It is going to go on for generations to come.

Or just look at the one from a cabinet meeting I already provided https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjqIU3V-iZw ... the highlight has to be this...

And there's but one thing I wish for: that that Nobel committee finally gets it's act together and realises that you are the single finest candidate since the Nobel peace ... this Nobel award was ever ... talked about to receive that award. Beyond your success is game changing out in the world.

Inspiring stuff, and just as true today as it ever was.


There's no comparison between this constant glazing and anything ever seen in a functional democracy.

[MikeNovack]

Too late. I already know about them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_crisis

But you're going to try to say that since there were kibbutzim, however flawed and financially unworkable they turned out to be, that Socialism is good and would work on a national scale? I can't wait to hear that argument.

NOT IN QUESTION (yet)
I am not (yet) interested in discussing with you successful or not, etc. << although I can see we disagree on WHAT their problems are >>

At the moment just EXISTENCE and whether representing ideology outside your definition of socialism/communism.

You have a really annoying habit of jumping ahead to "duck" the issue at hand. THAT ISSUE is th4e existence or non-existenceof socialist/communist ideologies for which your definition is a poor fit. So far you have not been willing to discuss the Christian communalists and now the bibbutzim.

Repeat --- ARE these examples of socialist/communist ideologies and are they fitting within our definition or not? Saying, for example, that the True Levelers and the Shakers no longer exist is NOT a response. Saying unimportant on the world stage is NOT a response. Or here your assertion that kibbutzim have been a failure NOT a response.

BTW --- ONE of the failure problems (failure to maintain structure if very successful in financial terms) is far from specific to kibbutzim. The succession/replacement problem equally plagues small CAPITALIST entities (say a closely held family and worker owned enterprise). It's just that in that case we are less likely to think of "failure to maintain that structure" as failure.

[Immanuel Can]

Too late. I already know about them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_crisis

But you're going to try to say that since there were kibbutzim, however flawed and financially unworkable they turned out to be, that Socialism is good and would work on a national scale? I can't wait to hear that argument.

NOT IN QUESTION (yet)
I am not (yet) interested in discussing with you successful or not, etc. << although I can see we disagree on WHAT their problems are >>

We disagree on much more. You're still trying to avoid discussing what real Socialism is. You're trying to limit it to little, dependent programs and initiatives, that are still tied to "capitalist" apron strings.

Get real. Seriously, dude.

Let's talk about REAL Socialism, Socialism as it is ambitious to be, and about what it does when it gets control.

You have a really annoying habit of jumping ahead...

It's all too easy to do. I can see where you're going. If you weren't, you'd have given your definition of Socialism already.

But it's apparent you're desperate not to, most likely because you know it's very, very vulnerable, and is going to bring in all the bad cases Socialism has actually produced. You're clearly fighting the expedient of having it open you up to the truth about Socialism: a truth you obviously know (which is why you're avoiding it, obviously) and which you're desperate not to have to admit.

Socialism is a dogma, a religion, a cult belief, a fever-dream of totalitarians, not a practical economic plan for a real people. As soon as it meets reality, it turns into a horror show...as it has in 100% of the cases you're so desperate not to bring to bear on the question.

[phyllo]

You two took over the "UK to lower voting age" thread with the socialism debate.

Now you have to take over this thread as well?

What the hell.


Start your own damn thread and stay there.

[MikeNovack]

Sorry

[RickLewis]

Nipping back to the original theme:

A lot of people are saying that Trump is failing around like an incompetent fool, with only vague and shifting ideas of his war aims in Iran, and no credible plan for how to achieve anything or exit the conflict. A lot of people are saying that he's about to launch a ground attack that is quite likely to develop into an inconclusive and bloody forever-war.

I'm just wondering if anyone would care to argue against this position? I'd love to hear a more optimistic view, if one is possible.