UK to lower voting age to 16

[Immanuel Can]

Surprising.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2026/03/09/ice ... tions-2008
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ednc/pr/al ... gally-vote
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/19-fo ... -elections
https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/news-rel ... d-lying-on
https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/ho ... -SD020.pdf

Yeah, I was betting that you would latch on a few cases of non-citizens voting.

You were right. So it's pretty funny that you would claim it wasn't happening. And there are, of course, lots more cases, and very likely a whole lot that have not yet been caught.

But, of course, the real issue is not who may be voting in past elections, but rather the millions of non-eligible whom a party could incorporate into the vote in future elections, simply by, say, "naturalizing" masses of them by fiat, or by unilaterally lowering the bar for eligibility for citizenship, or even by something as easy as not requiring voter ID.

Sounds like it would get a lot of resistance in congress, the courts and the states.

Not necessarily. If the Federal government can tighten voter ID laws, why couldn't a different government keep them vague or even remove them?

But it's interesting: this should be a bi-partisan cause, and a remarkable number on both sides are for it. https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... erica-act/. The news says 85% of Americans favour it.

What would be the real rationale for not wanting elections to be secure?

[Wizard22]

*Warning, Warning, Sarcasm ahead*

Oh, I know everybody, I just had a great idea! Let's let 5-year-olds who believe in Santa Clause, mass-murdering turd-world Moslems who stab rampage little girls to death, and the entire country of China vote in our Government! After all, we don't want to be RACIST or FACIST. And we need to represent LITERALLY the entire rest of the planet. Because Muh Democracy!

I know, I know... hold your Applause Britbongs. Really, I can't take this standing admiration, you're too much!

*Sheds a tear*
*Bows and waves*
*Tips hat*
*Exits*

Wait, you don't want the farmers and working class to vote. Why only the worst of the plebians? It's ok for the worst of the aristocracy? When did you become so classist and elitist?

When I became an self-responsible, Autonomous Adult, who does not want to share a society with Anarchists, Deplorables, and Criminals. I want Leftists and their scum DESTROYED. I don't want to live in the same country as turd-worlder child shankers. You and all the other Democrat-Liberal-leftists however, do. We are not the same.

You're clearly invested, but hardly optimistic. I'd love to see the legislation that weeds out those who are not invested, not optimistic.

We already had the necessary Legislation in the early 20th Century. The problem was/is the rise of Democrat-Leftist-Neo-Liberalism and mass migration of the turd-world, into the First World nations.

So, you want a republic not a democracy. What country now or earlier in history fits the model you like?

Literally America

[phyllo]

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑
So, you want a republic not a democracy. What country now or earlier in history fits the model you like?

Literally America

But not literally America now, right?

So, America in which year of its history?

[phyllo]

You were right. So it's pretty funny that you would claim it wasn't happening. And there are, of course, lots more cases, and very likely a whole lot that have not yet been caught.

It isn't happening in significant numbers and it's under control.

Saying "non-citizens are voting" makes some gullible people think that there is a problem which needs to addressed.

It's a distortion used by those in power to manipulate and control.

The mugshot of a colored guy on a government site really works, right?

Not necessarily. If the Federal government can tighten voter ID laws, why couldn't a different government keep them vague or even remove them?

Yeah, the federal government may enact new laws in the future. Astonishing.

BTW, the states control most aspects of voting, not the federal government.

What would be the real rationale for not wanting elections to be secure?

One can ask ... what is the real rationale for changing election laws when elections are already secure?

Could it be that Trump thinks every election that he or his side loses is "rigged"?

Could it be that he wants to manipulate elections in order to hang on to power?

[Wizard22]

But not literally America now, right?

So, America in which year of its history?

1951 I suppose, right at the start of our Golden Age, which ended on Sept. 11th, 2001. It was a great 50-year-stretch. You know, "Make America Great Again" refers to Nostalgia for the 50s. It also perfectly encapsulates why and how you don't give away Muh Right to Voooooote to just anybody. Again, to the point, Democracies always fail in the exact same fashion: Over-Representation.

I don't want Representation for criminals, morons, 5-year-olds, and China. I want representation for MY PEOPLE, MY NATION, and the BEST of it, not the worst of it.

[phyllo]

1951 The year that rock and roll was born. Rocket "88" was the first song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcFIj8OuIEI

[phyllo]

Back to the SAVE act

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Axg5O-y9rgs

[Iwannaplato]

Wait, you don't want the farmers and working class to vote. Why only the worst of the plebians? It's ok for the worst of the aristocracy? When did you become so classist and elitist?

When I became an self-responsible, Autonomous Adult, who does not want to share a society with Anarchists, Deplorables, and Criminals. I want Leftists and their scum DESTROYED. I don't want to live in the same country as turd-worlder child shankers. You and all the other Democrat-Liberal-leftists however, do. We are not the same.

You said plebeians. It seems clear you didn't know what the word meant. So in your sarcastic paragraphs which I deleted and this one you made up a whole range of strawman examples.

Plebeians were the working class and the farmer class. That's what it refers to. Maybe you just chose the wrong word. Can happen to any of use. I hope you can manage to admit that. I did ask you specifically what you had against those groups it does refer to.

[Iwannaplato]

So, you want a republic not a democracy. What country now or earlier in history fits the model you like?

Literally America

Great the US and what did this Republic do. Through bipartisan agreement it moved to a mixed Republic/Democracy.

The U.S. Constitution was designed with a built-in mechanism for change: the amendment process. By using this process to expand voting rights and direct elections, the "republic" was essentially following its own rules to evolve. It wasn't a departure from the republican form, but a refinement of it using the tools the Founders provided.

Many of the most "democratic" shifts in U.S. history were not purely liberal projects:
The 19th Amendment (Women's Suffrage): Republicans were actually the primary drivers of this amendment in Congress. In the 1919 vote, 91% of House Republicans and 82% of Senate Republicans voted in favor, compared to 60% and 54% of Democrats, respectively.
The 17th Amendment (Direct Election of Senators): This was a response to widespread corruption and "deadlocks" in state legislatures that left Senate seats vacant for years. It gained broad public support across party lines because both sides saw the old system as broken.
The Voting Rights Act of 1965: While pushed by a Democratic president (LBJ), the bill received higher percentage support from Republicans in both the House (82%) and Senate (94%) than from Democrats, many of whom were conservative Southerners opposing the measure.

I have no ideal what 'literally' America would mean.
I can't imagine anyone thinking you meant America metaphorically. Maybe this is one of your problem areas. You don't quite know what metaphors are and also confuse maps with territory.

[Immanuel Can]

You were right. So it's pretty funny that you would claim it wasn't happening. And there are, of course, lots more cases, and very likely a whole lot that have not yet been caught.

It isn't happening in significant numbers and it's under control.

Oh. So now it's not "it never happens," just "it's happening, but it's cool?"

It's a distortion used by those in power to manipulate and control.

You couldn't have a better description of those who are opposing proper voter ID. They're raising fake "objections" to enable them to continue to be in power, and to manipulate and control.

But you never answered my question: what would be the real reason for opposing voter ID? Now you've answered it, if only accidentally.

Not necessarily. If the Federal government can tighten voter ID laws, why couldn't a different government keep them vague or even remove them?

Yeah, the federal government may enact new laws in the future. Astonishing.

"New"? You characterize such laws as just "new"? That's all you can notice about subversion of the voting process?

BTW, the states control most aspects of voting, not the federal government.

Yes, I know. But standardizing it in a secure format would be a much wiser procedure, so I hope for America's sake that it happens.

What would be the real rationale for not wanting elections to be secure?

One can ask ... what is the real rationale for changing election laws when elections are already secure?

I've offered evidence for vote insecurity, and I've got tons more. What's your evidence that the vote is secure?

I'll bet you've got none. I'll bet you're just assuming that.

Prove me wrong.

[phyllo]

I've offered evidence for vote insecurity, and I've got tons more. What's your evidence that the vote is secure?

I'll bet you've got none. I'll bet you're just assuming that.

Prove me wrong.

The 2020 election fraud accusations have been thoroughly investigated and no significant fraud was found.

Look it up yourself. I'm not your lackey.

[phyllo]

It isn't happening in significant numbers and it's under control.

Oh. So now it's not "it never happens," just "it's happening, but it's cool?"

And you bitch that I put words into your mouth.

[Immanuel Can]

It isn't happening in significant numbers and it's under control.

Oh. So now it's not "it never happens," just "it's happening, but it's cool?"

And you bitch that I put words into your mouth.

Fair enough. I was just amused by the absurdity of the switch. But you can put it in your own words, and I think it won't be less a switch, or any less funny, actually.

How can non-eligible voters both simply not happen, and also be not significant in numbers and under control? And it's even funnier that you knew already I'd have no problem finding cases, so you anticipated my rejoinder. So you already knew you were...what's the word...fudging the case.

Let's put it that way. It's nicer than saying "lying."

It's like the Dems' "Biden's not senile until we need him gone, then he is."

[phyllo]

How can non-eligible voters both simply not happen, and also be not significant in numbers and under control? And it's even funnier that you knew already I'd have no problem finding cases, so you anticipated my rejoinder. So you already knew you were...what's the word...fudging the case.

I figured that I was talking to a fairly reasonable person who would not take a few insignificant cases of non-citizen voting as more than a mosquito on an elephant's butt.

However, I still had a small doubt based on another discussion about a completely different subject at ILP. That was a republican declaring victory over another insignificant fact.

I hoped that you were not like that but it appears that you are.

[Immanuel Can]

How can non-eligible voters both simply not happen, and also be not significant in numbers and under control? And it's even funnier that you knew already I'd have no problem finding cases, so you anticipated my rejoinder. So you already knew you were...what's the word...fudging the case.

I figured that I was talking to a fairly reasonable person who would not take a few insignificant cases of non-citizen voting as more than a mosquito on an elephant's butt.

Does a reasonable person undermine his own argument as soon as he's been proved wrong?

Just asking.