Gary's Corner

[Immanuel Can]

Don't discount the power of randomness.

Show me an empirical example of high levels of irreducible complexity and sophisticated order, which are created by nothing but randomness.

I'll wait. But I suspect that I'll wait a long time, because empirically, order comes form design, not from randomness. And design comes from intelligence, not randomness.

[phyllo]

Order is a characteristic of intelligence.

Are you saying that salt crystals are intelligent?

[phyllo]

Don't discount the power of randomness.

Show me an empirical example of high levels of irreducible complexity and sophisticated order, which are created by nothing but randomness.

I'll wait. But I suspect that I'll wait a long time, because empirically, order comes form design, not from randomness. And design comes from intelligence, not randomness.

Well, since you have already decided.

And whatever I might say will be dismissed as not satisfying "high levels of irreducible complexity", "high levels of sophisticated order" and "nothing but randomness".

(Whatever "nothing but randomness" even means. )

Why would I even bother?

[phyllo]

If one looks at evolution, it functions within a structured universe.

Of course, some people call evolution 'random'.

[Immanuel Can]

Don't discount the power of randomness.

Show me an empirical example of high levels of irreducible complexity and sophisticated order, which are created by nothing but randomness.

I'll wait. But I suspect that I'll wait a long time, because empirically, order comes form design, not from randomness. And design comes from intelligence, not randomness.

Well, since you have already decided.

I'm inviting you to prove me wrong, actually. Or if you have some justification to believe that order comes spontaneously from randomness, I'm inviting you to lay it open for inspection.

[Immanuel Can]

If one looks at evolution, it functions within a structured universe.

Well, unless one is already convinced of Evolutionism, that's not actually a good argument. But let's suppose you do: then you need to ask yourself, how did the universe get "structured" -- and so structured as to be hedged about with enough laws and regularities to produce something as complex as millions or even billions of years of successful "evolution," if what produced it was "random"?

[Gary Childress]

If one looks at evolution, it functions within a structured universe.

Well, unless one is already convinced of Evolutionism, that's not actually a good argument. But let's suppose you do: then you need to ask yourself, how did the universe get "structured" -- and so structured as to be hedged about with enough laws and regularities to produce something as complex as millions or even billions of years of successful "evolution," if what produced it was "random"?

A Christian woo believer giving advice on how to go about understanding reality. "It's all magic and spirits," including atheism because atheism is all about magic and spirits. And Agnosticism is a "doctrine".

[Gary Childress]

I think ancient civilizations probably made their human sacrifices using people like me. But I screwed that up by losing my virginity once. Maybe a good thing for me.

[Gary Childress]

I saw a video a while back of William Lane Craig stating that God's "gift of grace" is "unconditional". Of course, it's a special "unconditionality" that depends upon whether a person accepts Jesus or not (according to Craig).

Must love Christian "philosophers". They have mental challenges. It's like saying that God created a universe with evil in it and God is, at the same time "benevolent". Apparently, only a Christian can think that. It's enlightenment that comes from "mystic union" with burning bushes (or maybe burning weed).

[Gary Childress]

So my country is once again initiating a "conflict" (not a "war") with another country. And once again it is in the name of "defense". Defense = initiating a conflict must be something else only a Christian can believe. Where is William Lane Craig when we need him to explain this kind of "logic"?

[Gary Childress]

If the Christian God exists, then I'm screwed. I'm also screwed if the Islamic God exists. Heck, I'm screwed if Marduk or Zeus exist. Then again, I'm just screwed. Fuck mental illness. The world is shit. Who the fuck in their right mind would treat an illness with anti-psychotics. Might as well pour Liquid Drano on my brain.

[phyllo]

Show me an empirical example of high levels of irreducible complexity and sophisticated order, which are created by nothing but randomness.

I'll wait. But I suspect that I'll wait a long time, because empirically, order comes form design, not from randomness. And design comes from intelligence, not randomness.

Well, since you have already decided.

I'm inviting you to prove me wrong, actually. Or if you have some justification to believe that order comes spontaneously from randomness, I'm inviting you to lay it open for inspection.

The obvious example is God.

God is order that came from nothing or 'randomness' if you wish to use that word.

The fact that order exists in the universe means it arose 'somehow' ... either directly or first forming a god who then created the universe as we know it.

[Immanuel Can]

Well, since you have already decided.

I'm inviting you to prove me wrong, actually. Or if you have some justification to believe that order comes spontaneously from randomness, I'm inviting you to lay it open for inspection.

The obvious example is God.

I didn't think you believe in God. However, what Christians and Jews, for example, mean by "God" is different from what you apparently mean here. Christians and Jews do not believe in a created god, or gods with beginnings. There are polytheists that did or do...the Greeks, for example, who thought Zeus sprang from the head of Chronos. But that's not the Christian "God" concept, the concept of a Supreme Being, First Cause and ultimate Creator. So you'd be drawing on the polytheist tradition, if you suggested that some "god" were an example of that. It certainly wouldn't be the Christian God, by definition.

However, if, as Christians and Jews believe, God is eternal, that's not possible, of course. God can't be used as an example of order from randomness, because that view of God is that He is self-existent, and doesn't have a beginning.

But if you don't believe in God, that's a moot point anyway. Let's go on, then.

The fact that order exists in the universe means it arose 'somehow' ... either directly or first forming a god who then created the universe as we know it.

Well, of course, the word "somehow" isn't actually an explanation of anything. It's an empty, undefined placeholder for "I don't know."

So, unless you've got something else in mind, we will have to conclude that there are, to our knowledge, no examples at all of order arising spontaneously from chaos by way of randomness. And yet that is the very explanation Atheism's sponsoring worldviews ask us to accept -- that contrary to any examples at all, randomness somehow generated order, and order of a very high level of complexity and interrelatedness.

It would take a great deal of faith to accept such an explanation, I think you'd have to agree.

[Gary Childress]

The fact that order exists in the universe means it arose 'somehow' ... either directly or first forming a god who then created the universe as we know it.

Well, of course, the word "somehow" isn't actually an explanation of anything.

Of course, we should all speculate on things we don't know or understand and never use the word "somehow". As a starter let's just say "God did it". That should suffice and then religious leaders can feel like experts on reality and create more churche$.

[Immanuel Can]

The fact that order exists in the universe means it arose 'somehow' ... either directly or first forming a god who then created the universe as we know it.

Well, of course, the word "somehow" isn't actually an explanation of anything.

Of course...

Gary, you've been rude, insulting and vile toward the God I love. I know you're mentally ill and unbalanced, you've said so yourself: but I have limits. And now, I'm done with talking to you, until you sort out your issues with God.

God help you. You're going to need it. And I mean that sincerely.