Does gender matter?

[accelafine]

I guess all these discussions mean that gender and sex matters a lot. Suppose God will judge us, does it matter what our sex or gender is?

Well, there's no such thing as "gender" -- at least in application to human beings. There's just sex: XX and XY. (Genetic anomalies only take us back to the same norm, they don't locate a different "gender." And the vast majority of those who claim confusion on this point are not genetic anomalies anyway.)

SEX is biological, there are two, even taking into account the XXY and XYY males. But there ARE some biological males (by genetics) that will be labeled female at birth because of genetic abnormalities preventing fetal development as males.

Could you BE any more annoying? So what? Some people are born with two heads.

[MikeNovack]

[Could you BE any more annoying? So what? Some people are born with two heads.

Medical reality --- there are SOME genetic males (XY) that will almost always be classified as female at birth because of the appearance of their external genitalia. Caused by genetic abnormalities affecting the developing fetus to make/use certain hormones. Not usually diagnosed till age of puberty, since small girls are not usually examined internally (or MRI of the lower abdomen)

Don't believe me, look it up yourself.

Some of these ARE going to require treatment, even to remain as normal appearing females. None of these can make babies since no ovaries. Some will need medical help to be able to have sex as females. << there is more than one genetic defect, so more than one type >>

The reverse does not occur, as default fetal development is female. In other words, no babies classified at birth as males are genetic females. Need (at least) one Y chromosome to develop male.

[promethean75]

Damn did Mike just school accelafine or what?

[accelafine]

[Could you BE any more annoying? So what? Some people are born with two heads.

Medical reality --- there are SOME genetic males (XY) that will almost always be classified as female at birth because of the appearance of their external genitalia. Caused by genetic abnormalities affecting the developing fetus to make/use certain hormones. Not usually diagnosed till age of puberty, since small girls are not usually examined internally (or MRI of the lower abdomen)

Don't believe me, look it up yourself.

Some of these ARE going to require treatment, even to remain as normal appearing females. None of these can make babies since no ovaries. Some will need medical help to be able to have sex as females. << there is more than one genetic defect, so more than one type >>

The reverse does not occur, as default fetal development is female. In other words, no babies classified at birth as males are genetic females. Need (at least) one Y chromosome to develop male.

Thank you for the mansplanation. Gosh. I didn't know any of this previously and can see how this is completely relevant to men cheating at women's sports and lurking in women's changing rooms. I never knew there was any such thing as birth defects concerning genitalia.

[accelafine]

The stupid old fart is so literal that he will probably say 'you're welcome' without a hint of sarcasm or irony.

[accelafine]

Damn did Mike just school accelafine or what?

What is that supposed to mean? 'Schooled' me 'how'?

[MikeNovack]

Thank you for the mansplanation. Gosh. I didn't know any of this previously and can see how this is completely relevant to men cheating at women's sports and lurking in women's changing rooms. I never knew there was any such thing as birth defects concerning genitalia.

It has NOTHING to do with any of THAT (men in women's sports and locker rooms)

It has to do with women athletes, classified as female at birth, who grew up as girls, living as women, who would fail a genetic test if required to take one. I consider that grossly unfair, especially as one type can't even use testosterone.

It has to do with our insane politics of the day that would deny medical treatment to one of the other types, whose bodies, at puberty, would otherwise become extremely "mannish"

You did see that I had said the reverse does not exist. Whether you did or did not know before, how could I tell. Being up on math and the sciences not what I am seeing a lot of on this forum.

[accelafine]

Thank you for the mansplanation. Gosh. I didn't know any of this previously and can see how this is completely relevant to men cheating at women's sports and lurking in women's changing rooms. I never knew there was any such thing as birth defects concerning genitalia.

It has NOTHING to do with any of THAT (men in women's sports and locker rooms)

It has to do with women athletes, classified as female at birth, who grew up as girls, living as women, who would fail a genetic test if required to take one. I consider that grossly unfair, especially as one type can't even use testosterone.

It has to do with our insane politics of the day that would deny medical treatment to one of the other types, whose bodies, at puberty, would otherwise become extremely "mannish"

You did see that I had said the reverse does not exist. Whether you did or did not know before, how could I tell. Being up on math and the sciences not what I am seeing a lot of on this forum.

WTF are you even on about, old man? 'Unfair' to whom? MEN??
Yes, a MAN would fail a choromosome test for women's sports! What difference does it make what his genitals looked like at birth?
How does one 'live as a woman'? Prey tell.
Those olympic athletes who stole medals from women at the olympics and who allegedly were 'raised as girls' (whatever THAT means) had all gone through male puberty. Even before puberty boys are stronger and more muscular than girls. Why would they need testosterone if they had gone through male puberty??? One is married, to a woman, and has fathered 3 children. For pity's sake man, stay out of this. You are exhausting!

[accelafine]

Women are not men with a micropenis, and foetuses are not 'female by default' just because the genitalia hasn't formed yet!

I wouldn't be boasting about my scientific know-how if I were you, Mike Novack.

[popeye1945]

Two aspects of one thing, species, male and female, period. Anything else is mental illness or, at least, profound disorientation.

[MikeNovack]

WTF are you even on about, old man? 'Unfair' to whom? MEN??
Yes, a MAN would fail a choromosome test for women's sports! What difference does it make what his genitals looked like at birth?
How does one 'live as a woman'? Prey tell.
Those olympic athletes who stole medals from women at the olympics and who allegedly were 'raised as girls' (whatever THAT means) had all gone through male puberty. Even before puberty boys are stronger and more muscular than girls. Why would they need testosterone if they had gone through male puberty??? One is married, to a woman, and has fathered 3 children. For pity's sake man, stay out of this. You are exhausting!

Look, you are telling me you know about these genetic defects but obviously you do not. It is not just the X and Y chromosomes that determine whether a fetus develops male or female and what happens at puberty. Various regulator genes are involved. I'm not going to spell out the various genetic abnormalities since you will remember better if you look up for yourself. But I have been mentioning two of the types (there are more). Both missing regulators for fetal development, one of these missing one affecting puberty. Bot of those would have been classified as girl babies and raised as girls and likely not diagnosed till puberty.

You are talking out something entirely different.

BUT --- this is supposed to be about GENDER (not biological sex). I am saying these NOT the same thing. There can be more than two genders. I am NOT arguing that a man can become a woman (gender). He would become ANOTHER gender (our culture has no name for this) for "man transitioned to this (other) gender." I did, I believe, give an example of a culture that did have a term for this. Also that nowadays (since the last few decades) so do some Native American peoples.

[accelafine]

WTF are you even on about, old man? 'Unfair' to whom? MEN??
Yes, a MAN would fail a choromosome test for women's sports! What difference does it make what his genitals looked like at birth?
How does one 'live as a woman'? Prey tell.
Those olympic athletes who stole medals from women at the olympics and who allegedly were 'raised as girls' (whatever THAT means) had all gone through male puberty. Even before puberty boys are stronger and more muscular than girls. Why would they need testosterone if they had gone through male puberty??? One is married, to a woman, and has fathered 3 children. For pity's sake man, stay out of this. You are exhausting!

Look, you are telling me you know about these genetic defects but obviously you do not. It is not just the X and Y chromosomes that determine whether a fetus develops male or female and what happens at puberty. Various regulator genes are involved. I'm not going to spell out the various genetic abnormalities since you will remember better if you look up for yourself. But I have been mentioning two of the types (there are more). Both missing regulators for fetal development, one of these missing one affecting puberty. Bot of those would have been classified as girl babies and raised as girls and likely not diagnosed till puberty.

You are talking out something entirely different.

BUT --- this is supposed to be about GENDER (not biological sex). I am saying these NOT the same thing. There can be more than two genders. I am NOT arguing that a man can become a woman (gender). He would become ANOTHER gender (our culture has no name for this) for "man transitioned to this (other) gender." I did, I believe, give an example of a culture that did have a term for this. Also that nowadays (since the last few decades) so do some Native American peoples.

'Spell it out'? You can't even spell the word foetus.
Repeating yourself over and over will eventually make it true Did you even read what I wrote? How is someone 'raised as a girl'? I can't even work out what point you are desperately trying to make. That because there are rare birth defects where external male genitalia hasn't formed properly then men should be allowed in women's sports and spaces?
Go away you patronising old fart. Troll somewhere else.

[MikeNovack]

'Spell it out'? You can't even spell the word foetus.
Repeating yourself over and over will eventually make it true Did you even read what I wrote? How is someone 'raised as a girl'? I can't even work out what point you are desperately trying to make. That because there are rare birth defects where external male genitalia hasn't formed properly then men should be allowed in women's sports and spaces?
Go away you patronising old fart. Troll somewhere else.

"That because there are rare birth defects where external male genitalia hasn't formed properly then men should be allowed in women's sports and spaces?"

That is YOU saying what I am saying.

"How is someone 'raised as a girl?'"

How is a person raised who looks like a girl at birth and continues to look like a girl until puberty? I have described the results of two of the defects. One type will fail to begin menstruation AND begin getting "mannish". The other will fail to menstruate in spite of being well developed (as a female).

NEITHER of these are "men" except having a Y chromosome. Would you REALLY want to have all newborns genetically tested and "birth sex" assigned that way? Especially that second type.

WHY are you persisting in insisting I am talking about men in women's sports and locker rooms? Why are you persisting in insisting I am talking about one of the other sorts of defects that leads to ambiguous sexed baby at birth?

[accelafine]

'Spell it out'? You can't even spell the word foetus.
Repeating yourself over and over will eventually make it true Did you even read what I wrote? How is someone 'raised as a girl'? I can't even work out what point you are desperately trying to make. That because there are rare birth defects where external male genitalia hasn't formed properly then men should be allowed in women's sports and spaces?
Go away you patronising old fart. Troll somewhere else.

"That because there are rare birth defects where external male genitalia hasn't formed properly then men should be allowed in women's sports and spaces?"

That is YOU saying what I am saying.

"How is someone 'raised as a girl?'"

How is a person raised who looks like a girl at birth and continues to look like a girl until puberty? I have described the results of two of the defects. One type will fail to begin menstruation AND begin getting "mannish". The other will fail to menstruate in spite of being well developed (as a female).

NEITHER of these are "men" except having a Y chromosome. Would you REALLY want to have all newborns genetically tested and "birth sex" assigned that way? Especially that second type.

WHY are you persisting in insisting I am talking about men in women's sports and locker rooms? Why are you persisting in insisting I am talking about one of the other sorts of defects that leads to ambiguous sexed baby at birth?

YOU are the one who said it's 'grossly unfair' with regard to sports! I've already asked you to clarify that-- which you didn't bother to. I'm pretty sure you meant 'unfair' to men though, because everyone knows that a woman is just a man with undescended testicles. Women need to suck it up when men want to punch their lights out in the name of 'sport'. Their needs are nothing compared to men who have been 'living as women' (which apparently includes marrying a woman and fathering children with her). You need a lobotomy.
Your writing is hard to decipher at the best of times. Do you have massive sausage fingers by any chance? You should read what you write before submitting.
Why are you banging on about rare genital birth defects anyway? What does that have to do with anything? This isn't a medical thread.

[Phil8659]

There used to be only two genders – male and female – but now we see a proliferation of more than twenty genders. For some people, their gender and pronouns are big deal, but for me, I don’t care what my gender is or of people mistake my gender. What matters to me is my character, whatever my gender may be.

I knew two women and one asked me, do you want to have sex? I did not say a word until after breakfast the next day.

The other woman asked me, do you want to go into the bed room and gender?

I told her to hold that thought and I went to the movies.