New York City

[Gary Childress]

You will remember that I do not think this forum is the proper place for the externalization of your psychological-existential problems. No one is qualified for counseling.

Most here don't want to sift through volumes of "dissident" right garbage either, however, that doesn't seem to stop you from recommending it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

A couple of thoughts …

1) In general, and certainly in the US, the pressure builds. It is pressure from many angles and, like in a pressure cooker, it seems it will build until it — something— erupts. When I do visit the States I notice disarray in many places, but also dislocation, and separation — alienation. OTOH I also notice expressions of camaraderie and brotherhood in some places which seems unusual given a notable decline.

It is not surprising that the pressures exerted by circumstances show up in mental health issues. That is what they say is happening. And they say it is worse for women than for men. Especially younger women and girls.

And if one does not have a spiritual life, some link with a higher self or “higher power” (the sense of a guide within the confusion of life) and that corner of the self that one can take refuge in, it is easy to see how people can go off the edge.

2) I see disunity and disharmony, which is obviously destructive of a sense of social unity (in the US, I could not speak for Europe), and it seems that people cannot Rx it. Everyone takes a stab at some pet theory though. It’s like the blind describing an elephant.

My view? The actual facts of the matter are very difficult to talk about freely because of the dangers involved in speaking honestly and forthrightly. Especially here on this forum, as in general, the core differences are always between people who are tendentious opposites. If some shadow of an impression is picked up by an oversensitive interlocutor, and precisely as that worthwhile Jung excerpt I posted above asserts, the “projection mechanism” click into motion, and then the machinery of ‘righteous attack’ is lowered against ‘the enemy’ whose head popped up over the horizon …

It is so predictable!

Clearly though (returning to thoughts on the US), the nation has entered what seems like a critical phase. Sociologically. Demographically. I have been told that the conflicts of the Sixties were more dramatic though, however I was not a witness to it.

3) In order to understand “the present” I cannot see how one could avoid examining the discourse of radicalized extremists, on the Left as well as the Right. So, in that sense Gary, you do yourself a disservice by avoiding that examination. It is my opinion, as one who reads widely, that many ideas of The Dissident Right have entered the so-called mainstream. I noticed the beginnings of it 15 years ago. It is certainly “reactive” (as in reaction, reactionary) but similarly and even more intensely the activism of the Left is far more pervasive and its effects far more visible. It is predictable that Right-tending activism would show up. It was predicted.

4) It is very hard to make much ‘sense’ of politics, and you might be better off suspending the attempt, simply because it all involves so much conflicted psychological material that erupts emotionally. Hysterically in fact. Again that Jung clip speaks to the ‘impossibility’ of making sense of it. Thus the only productive field anyone (of us) can actually work on is our own inner self, and in the context also of immediate relations (spouse, family, kids, neighbors, friend).

[Gary Childress]

A couple of thoughts …

1) In general, and certainly in the US, the pressure builds. It is pressure from many angles and, like in a pressure cooker, it seems it will build until it — something— erupts. When I do visit the States I notice disarray in many places, but also dislocation, and separation — alienation. OTOH I also notice expressions of camaraderie and brotherhood in some places which seems unusual given a notable decline.

It is not surprising that the pressures exerted by circumstances show up in mental health issues. That is what they say is happening. And they say it is worse for women than for men. Especially younger women and girls.

And if one does not have a spiritual life, some link with a higher self or “higher power” (the sense of a guide within the confusion of life) and that corner of the self that one can take refuge in, it is easy to see how people can go off the edge.

2) I see disunity and disharmony, which is obviously destructive of a sense of social unity (in the US, I could not speak for Europe), and it seems that people cannot Rx it. Everyone takes a stab at some pet theory though. It’s like the blind describing an elephant.

My view? The actual facts of the matter are very difficult to talk about freely because of the dangers involved in speaking honestly and forthrightly. Especially here on this forum, as in general, the core differences are always between people who are tendentious opposites. If some shadow of an impression is picked up by an oversensitive interlocutor, and precisely as that worthwhile Jung excerpt I posted above asserts, the “projection mechanism” click into motion, and then the machinery of ‘righteous attack’ is lowered against ‘the enemy’ whose head popped up over the horizon …

It is so predictable!

Clearly though (returning to thoughts on the US), the nation has entered what seems like a critical phase. Sociologically. Demographically. I have been told that the conflicts of the Sixties were more dramatic though, however I was not a witness to it.

3) In order to understand “the present” I cannot see how one could avoid examining the discourse of radicalized extremists, on the Left as well as the Right. So, in that sense Gary, you do yourself a disservice by avoiding that examination. It is my opinion, as one who reads widely, that many ideas of The Dissident Right have entered the so-called mainstream. I noticed the beginnings of it 15 years ago. It is certainly “reactive” (as in reaction, reactionary) but similarly and even more intensely the activism of the Left is far more pervasive and its effects far more visible. It is predictable that Right-tending activism would show up. It was predicted.

4) It is very hard to make much ‘sense’ of politics, and you might be better off suspending the attempt, simply because it all involves so much conflicted psychological material that erupts emotionally. Hysterically in fact. Again that Jung clip speaks to the ‘impossibility’ of making sense of it. Thus the only productive field anyone (of us) can actually work on is our own inner self, and in the context also of immediate relations (spouse, family, kids, neighbors, friend).

People suffering from mental disorders are human beings also and not some special case that ordinary people need to put on Hazmat suits or hire special interlocutors to interact with. Or maybe we are. If the latter is the case, then fucking so be it. Put me in an insane "colony" and be done with me. Screw this place.

[popeye1945]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

[accelafine]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Yes, it is. And it's the only religion that has a 'special' made up word to describe anyone who dares to criticise it. Being scared of something scary is normal human behaviour F F S.

[phyllo]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Go and start a thread about it.

[FlashDangerpants]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Yes, it is. And it's the only religion that has a 'special' made up word to describe anyone who dares to criticise it. Being scared of something scary is normal human behaviour F F S.

Sad news for antisemites everywhere, they've had their special word taken away now.

[accelafine]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Yes, it is. And it's the only religion that has a 'special' made up word to describe anyone who dares to criticise it. Being scared of something scary is normal human behaviour F F S.

Sad news for antisemites everywhere, they've had their special word taken away now.

Yeah, now you call yourselves 'anti-zionists', neither of which is a religion-- unless you think 'semitism' is a religion. Never heard anyone talk about 'Judeophobia'.

[Belinda]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Some forms of Islam see God as close and personal (Sufism, Ismailis), some are moderate and flexible (mainstream Sunni, Twelver Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya—I guess most here would like Ahmadiyya), and some are strict and authoritarian (Salafism/Wahhabism, political Islamist movements)
Islam is not all the same concept ,nor the same behaviour.
All forms of Islam share belief in one God, Muhammad as God’s prophet, the Qur’an, basic practices like prayer and charity, and a sense of Muslim community.
Your view of what constitutes insanity needs elaboration.

[popeye1945]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Some forms of Islam see God as close and personal (Sufism, Ismailis), some are moderate and flexible (mainstream Sunni, Twelver Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya—I guess most here would like Ahmadiyya), and some are strict and authoritarian (Salafism/Wahhabism, political Islamist movements)
Islam is not all the same concept ,nor the same behaviour.
All forms of Islam share belief in one God, Muhammad as God’s prophet, the Qur’an, basic practices like prayer and charity, and a sense of Muslim community.
Your view of what constitutes insanity needs elaboration.

Well, all the desert religions took for their spiritual guides their own war gods; these were brutal times. Christianity and Judaism seem to have developed the skill of overlooking the most brutal aspects of their sacred texts; Islam has not. Let's see, apostasy, if you want to leave Islam, the penalty is death, and death to a world of unbelievers. Child marriages, stoning to death for suspected adultery, for women only. The denial of education to women and young girls. Lying and deceit are permissible to overcome the infidels. The world must become an Islamic world. You must give the infidels the opportunity to convert to Islam; if they refuse, death. Islam is just the worst of the insanity of faith. Does it even sound like it should make sense to try to build a future from the ignorance of the past? Humanity is smarter and much more knowledgeable today. We've come a long way in the last three thousand years. These old mythologies are basically unhealthy, think pathological. Islam is just the worst cognitive disease threatening humanity at large; it has not caught up with the modern concept of humanity. Believers, given what humanity knows today, have to be the laziest in terms of cognitive energy; these still waters of religion breed stagnation and death, first of the cognitive life and ultimately the spirit. Any religion that doesn't have a problem with raping children deserves no respect whatsoever. How about a new mythology based upon process thought, and creating a mindset that sees our environment as the greater expanse of self and the sacredness of nature? Religions are cognitive systems, but the programming has fossilized and become poisonous. They provide a wretched foundation for a future. Sure, there is some common-sense material and some great poetry, but they fall far short of being a medium to guide humanity into the future.

[Gary Childress]

ISLAM IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, RELIGIOUS INSANITY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS, AND TO HELL WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Some forms of Islam see God as close and personal (Sufism, Ismailis), some are moderate and flexible (mainstream Sunni, Twelver Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya—I guess most here would like Ahmadiyya), and some are strict and authoritarian (Salafism/Wahhabism, political Islamist movements)
Islam is not all the same concept ,nor the same behaviour.
All forms of Islam share belief in one God, Muhammad as God’s prophet, the Qur’an, basic practices like prayer and charity, and a sense of Muslim community.
Your view of what constitutes insanity needs elaboration.

Well, all the desert religions took for their spiritual guides their own war gods; these were brutal times. Christianity and Judaism seem to have developed the skill of overlooking the most brutal aspects of their sacred texts; Islam has not. Let's see, apostasy, if you want to leave Islam, the penalty is death, and death to a world of unbelievers. Child marriages, stoning to death for suspected adultery, for women only. The denial of education to women and young girls. Lying and deceit are permissible to overcome the infidels. The world must become an Islamic world. You must give the infidels the opportunity to convert to Islam; if they refuse, death. Islam is just the worst of the insanity of faith. Does it even sound like it should make sense to try to build a future from the ignorance of the past? Humanity is smarter and much more knowledgeable today. We've come a long way in the last three thousand years. These old mythologies are basically unhealthy, think pathological. Islam is just the worst cognitive disease threatening humanity at large; it has not caught up with the modern concept of humanity. Believers, given what humanity knows today, have to be the laziest in terms of cognitive energy; these still waters of religion breed stagnation and death, first of the cognitive life and ultimately the spirit. Any religion that doesn't have a problem with raping children deserves no respect whatsoever. How about a new mythology based upon process thought, and creating a mindset that sees our environment as the greater expanse of self and the sacredness of nature? Religions are cognitive systems, but the programming has fossilized and become poisonous. They provide a wretched foundation for a future. Sure, there is some common-sense material and some great poetry, but they fall far short of being a medium to guide humanity into the future.

If there's a God, then I don't think any mortal has ever encountered it or knows anything about it. Religious texts are pure fiction.

[Age]

Some forms of Islam see God as close and personal (Sufism, Ismailis), some are moderate and flexible (mainstream Sunni, Twelver Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya—I guess most here would like Ahmadiyya), and some are strict and authoritarian (Salafism/Wahhabism, political Islamist movements)
Islam is not all the same concept ,nor the same behaviour.
All forms of Islam share belief in one God, Muhammad as God’s prophet, the Qur’an, basic practices like prayer and charity, and a sense of Muslim community.
Your view of what constitutes insanity needs elaboration.

Well, all the desert religions took for their spiritual guides their own war gods; these were brutal times. Christianity and Judaism seem to have developed the skill of overlooking the most brutal aspects of their sacred texts; Islam has not. Let's see, apostasy, if you want to leave Islam, the penalty is death, and death to a world of unbelievers. Child marriages, stoning to death for suspected adultery, for women only. The denial of education to women and young girls. Lying and deceit are permissible to overcome the infidels. The world must become an Islamic world. You must give the infidels the opportunity to convert to Islam; if they refuse, death. Islam is just the worst of the insanity of faith. Does it even sound like it should make sense to try to build a future from the ignorance of the past? Humanity is smarter and much more knowledgeable today. We've come a long way in the last three thousand years. These old mythologies are basically unhealthy, think pathological. Islam is just the worst cognitive disease threatening humanity at large; it has not caught up with the modern concept of humanity. Believers, given what humanity knows today, have to be the laziest in terms of cognitive energy; these still waters of religion breed stagnation and death, first of the cognitive life and ultimately the spirit. Any religion that doesn't have a problem with raping children deserves no respect whatsoever. How about a new mythology based upon process thought, and creating a mindset that sees our environment as the greater expanse of self and the sacredness of nature? Religions are cognitive systems, but the programming has fossilized and become poisonous. They provide a wretched foundation for a future. Sure, there is some common-sense material and some great poetry, but they fall far short of being a medium to guide humanity into the future.

If there's a God, then I don't think any mortal has ever encountered it or knows anything about it. Religious texts are pure fiction.

What you do not think, here, is because you do not 'look', and 'listen', from the open perspective.

[Belinda]

Well, all the desert religions took for their spiritual guides their own war gods; these were brutal times. Christianity and Judaism seem to have developed the skill of overlooking the most brutal aspects of their sacred texts; Islam has not. Let's see, apostasy, if you want to leave Islam, the penalty is death, and death to a world of unbelievers. Child marriages, stoning to death for suspected adultery, for women only. The denial of education to women and young girls. Lying and deceit are permissible to overcome the infidels. The world must become an Islamic world. You must give the infidels the opportunity to convert to Islam; if they refuse, death. Islam is just the worst of the insanity of faith. Does it even sound like it should make sense to try to build a future from the ignorance of the past? Humanity is smarter and much more knowledgeable today. We've come a long way in the last three thousand years. These old mythologies are basically unhealthy, think pathological. Islam is just the worst cognitive disease threatening humanity at large; it has not caught up with the modern concept of humanity. Believers, given what humanity knows today, have to be the laziest in terms of cognitive energy; these still waters of religion breed stagnation and death, first of the cognitive life and ultimately the spirit. Any religion that doesn't have a problem with raping children deserves no respect whatsoever. How about a new mythology based upon process thought, and creating a mindset that sees our environment as the greater expanse of self and the sacredness of nature? Religions are cognitive systems, but the programming has fossilized and become poisonous. They provide a wretched foundation for a future. Sure, there is some common-sense material and some great poetry, but they fall far short of being a medium to guide humanity into the future.

If there's a God, then I don't think any mortal has ever encountered it or knows anything about it. Religious texts are pure fiction.

What you do not think, here, is because you do not 'look', and 'listen', from the open perspective.

Gary, I understand that what Age means by the "the open perspective" is the anthropological and historical perspective.I agree with Age.

I'd add that it's clumsy and simplistic to separate texts into fact and fiction, especially the huge variety of religious texts. Books that comprise The Bible for instance, are historical and anthropological sources for trained historians and anthropologists.

Gary, you may not be aware of the fact that actual novels are historical and anthropological sources, some more so than others.
Gary, you don''t help yourself or anyone else with your opinions and you would be better to get yourself informed. Read books or take a university course. Failing that, try not to be set on your own uninformed opinions.

[Belinda]

A couple of thoughts …

1) In general, and certainly in the US, the pressure builds. It is pressure from many angles and, like in a pressure cooker, it seems it will build until it — something— erupts. When I do visit the States I notice disarray in many places, but also dislocation, and separation — alienation. OTOH I also notice expressions of camaraderie and brotherhood in some places which seems unusual given a notable decline.

It is not surprising that the pressures exerted by circumstances show up in mental health issues. That is what they say is happening. And they say it is worse for women than for men. Especially younger women and girls.

And if one does not have a spiritual life, some link with a higher self or “higher power” (the sense of a guide within the confusion of life) and that corner of the self that one can take refuge in, it is easy to see how people can go off the edge.

2) I see disunity and disharmony, which is obviously destructive of a sense of social unity (in the US, I could not speak for Europe), and it seems that people cannot Rx it. Everyone takes a stab at some pet theory though. It’s like the blind describing an elephant.

My view? The actual facts of the matter are very difficult to talk about freely because of the dangers involved in speaking honestly and forthrightly. Especially here on this forum, as in general, the core differences are always between people who are tendentious opposites. If some shadow of an impression is picked up by an oversensitive interlocutor, and precisely as that worthwhile Jung excerpt I posted above asserts, the “projection mechanism” click into motion, and then the machinery of ‘righteous attack’ is lowered against ‘the enemy’ whose head popped up over the horizon …

It is so predictable!

Clearly though (returning to thoughts on the US), the nation has entered what seems like a critical phase. Sociologically. Demographically. I have been told that the conflicts of the Sixties were more dramatic though, however I was not a witness to it.

3) In order to understand “the present” I cannot see how one could avoid examining the discourse of radicalized extremists, on the Left as well as the Right. So, in that sense Gary, you do yourself a disservice by avoiding that examination. It is my opinion, as one who reads widely, that many ideas of The Dissident Right have entered the so-called mainstream. I noticed the beginnings of it 15 years ago. It is certainly “reactive” (as in reaction, reactionary) but similarly and even more intensely the activism of the Left is far more pervasive and its effects far more visible. It is predictable that Right-tending activism would show up. It was predicted.

4) It is very hard to make much ‘sense’ of politics, and you might be better off suspending the attempt, simply because it all involves so much conflicted psychological material that erupts emotionally. Hysterically in fact. Again that Jung clip speaks to the ‘impossibility’ of making sense of it. Thus the only productive field anyone (of us) can actually work on is our own inner self, and in the context also of immediate relations (spouse, family, kids, neighbors, friend).

"And if one does not have a spiritual life, some link with a higher self or “higher power” (the sense of a guide within the confusion of life) and that corner of the self that one can take refuge in, it is easy to see how people can go off the edge." wrote Alexis.

That needs to be explicit, Alexis,else you will not be understood.

I shall explain. People need moral principles. In past times religion was the medium for moral principles. Now religions have diversified .The worst of them are cults like that of Trump. The best of them , with the probable exception of the Quakers, are mystified by arcane language and ritual. In the US there never was an established religion.
Can anyone here argue cogently for a viable and popular religious form which is credible enough to support a moral code ?

[Belinda]

Yes, it is. And it's the only religion that has a 'special' made up word to describe anyone who dares to criticise it. Being scared of something scary is normal human behaviour F F S.

Sad news for antisemites everywhere, they've had their special word taken away now.

Yeah, now you call yourselves 'anti-zionists', neither of which is a religion-- unless you think 'semitism' is a religion. Never heard anyone talk about 'Judeophobia'.

You just did ! It remains to be seen if your initiative will become popular. Nazis word of Judeophobia was Judenhass. The Holocaust intervened to stop Judenhass and so far Holocaust consciousness has stopped any serious attempt to hate or fear Jews.