Forced Vaccination

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Walker
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Walker »

accelafine wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:09 pm
I don't give a flying fuck what the 'conservative' view is.
Sure you do. In fact, you cared enough to bring it up.

You said that the conservative position is anti-vax.

I corrected you with the truth.

The truth is, the conservative position is not forcing it upon people, but rather to make it voluntary for self-protection, if by your own rational assessment you decide that's the medicine for you.

Personally, since I'm heathy as a horse, I don't give it much thought. I had to get vaxxed up during Covid because I had to travel in Europe at the time, and could not fly without it, but it wasn't for health. I don't bother with flu shots or any of that stuff unless it's necessary, otherwise I don't give it any thought. Avoid hospitals like the plague. I remember quite awhile back when I started hearing the phrase, did you get your flu shot? I had never heard of such a thing.
Impenitent
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Impenitent »

accelafine wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:02 pm
Impenitent wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 12:46 pm humans have a right to the physical products of the labor of other humans?

-Imp
Yes they do. Humans have a right to be able to get around. If you are a member of the human race then you have a right to use HUMAN inventions and breakthroughs that are supposed to benefit all humans. Very often the inventors themselves made little or no money out of their inventions and discoveries. They did it to help and advance humankind. By your crass American money-centric 'logic' only the rich should have access to medical breakthroughs simply because some entrepeneurial **** has decided he wants to make a lot of money out of it.
AI could make life incredible beyond our wildest dreams for ALL humans (if it doesn't kill us all) but thanks to ultra-capitalist American bullshit it will only make a handful of sociopathic silicon valley nerds rich and powerful beyond their wildest dreams. So kindly shove your misguided and misinterpreted 'freedom' bullshit up your collective arse. 'Freedom' is NOT a synonym for 'living in a tent on a busy city street', or 'dying of cancer because you can't afford the cure'.
I'm surprised you have any free time at all

-Imp
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accelafine
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by accelafine »

Walker wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:21 pm
accelafine wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:09 pm
I don't give a flying fuck what the 'conservative' view is.
Sure you do. In fact, you cared enough to bring it up.

You said that the conservative position is anti-vax.

I corrected you with the truth.

The truth is, the conservative position is not forcing it upon people, but rather to make it voluntary for self-protection, if by your own rational assessment you decide that's the medicine for you.

Personally, since I'm heathy as a horse, I don't give it much thought. I had to get vaxxed up during Covid because I had to travel in Europe at the time, and could not fly without it, but it wasn't for health. I don't bother with flu shots or any of that stuff unless it's necessary, otherwise I don't give it any thought. Avoid hospitals like the plague. I remember quite awhile back when I started hearing the phrase, did you get your flu shot? I had never heard of such a thing.
I didn't bring it up, you did. I never mentioned 'conservatives' until you did. I have never heard EITHER side argue it in the way I have, using simple logic. I genuinely don't see how the neighbour being unvaccinated could have had any effect on the old woman, unless she was also unvaccinated, in which case if he was sick and went visiting her then she would of course be likely to catch it. But he could still have caught it and visited her even if he'd had the vaccine. Those are just basic facts. You do realise that people are free to have opinions that might 'shock horror' align with something that some 'conservatives' might have said or vice versa? That concept must be terribly alien to you.
Last edited by accelafine on Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Walker
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Walker »

:lol:

I could have sworn you brought it up. I just wandered in.

Shouldn't folks be pigeon-holed, like the woke and the hippies and the conservatives?

It's all right. You're a natural. You don't even need to know the word, to be.
Walker
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Walker »

accelafine wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:34 pmI have never heard EITHER side argue it in the way I have, using simple logic.
Trump did, in his proud and speedy roll-out of the Covid-19 vaccine, cost be damned with life as the measure, and the assessment of scientists as the guiding incentive.

He said, here it is if you want it. The scientists approve. He did say it was the biggest, best, most beautiful vaccine ever created in the history of the world, or words to that effect, but you know that's Trump, and knowing that's Trump is part of the assessment for a conservative. They're not lock-step morons, like Democrats.

Then, other forces got involved to force the vaccine, and to even make other potential remedies unavailable in the name of public health, such as that malarial drug, hydroxychloroquine.

Folks got rich on that vaccine.
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accelafine
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by accelafine »

Walker wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:36 pm :lol:

I could have sworn you brought it up. I just wandered in.

Shouldn't folks be pigeon-holed, like the woke and the hippies and the conservatives?

It's all right. You're a natural. You don't even need to know the word, to be.
Only if it actually applies. Of course humans are still going to conform. 'Left' and 'right' no longer has any meaning. I notice you are careful to use the word 'conservative' instead of 'right wing'. Hmm. i wonder why that would be... It's the 'left' that illiterate American ingnoramuses like you have fucked over. 'Liberal' LITERALLY means 'free' you retards. Stop talking to me. Your predictable and calculated descent into gibberish is nauseating.
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LuckyR
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by LuckyR »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 7:24 pm
LuckyR wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:37 am In the article the author stipulates that "forced" vaccination only means that in order to work at a hospital or fly on a plane you have to show proof of vaccination, thus her use of that word is very different from the common meaning of the word. Flying on a plane isn't a right, it's a privilege, thus everyone in her theoretical situation is free to be unvaccinated. No "force" required.
Yes. You can't travel. You can't cross the border. You can't go to a restaurant, a movie theatre, or a church. You can't join a club. You can't see your elderly loved ones, or any younger ones outside your "bubble". You can't go to school. You can't take a job, or keep the one you have. You can't see your neighbours. You're not allowed to go the grocery store...etc.

But no "force" is being used, they say. And your rights are not being violated, they say. We're merely shutting you out of every important social and essential function until you knuckle under and play by our rules, they say...

No force? It's what's called "soft force," or "exclusion." And it works, too.
Oh really? Who was in charge of checking vaccination status in restaurants again? Oh, no one. Exaggerate much?
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accelafine
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by accelafine »

LuckyR wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 6:48 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 7:24 pm
LuckyR wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:37 am In the article the author stipulates that "forced" vaccination only means that in order to work at a hospital or fly on a plane you have to show proof of vaccination, thus her use of that word is very different from the common meaning of the word. Flying on a plane isn't a right, it's a privilege, thus everyone in her theoretical situation is free to be unvaccinated. No "force" required.
Yes. You can't travel. You can't cross the border. You can't go to a restaurant, a movie theatre, or a church. You can't join a club. You can't see your elderly loved ones, or any younger ones outside your "bubble". You can't go to school. You can't take a job, or keep the one you have. You can't see your neighbours. You're not allowed to go the grocery store...etc.

But no "force" is being used, they say. And your rights are not being violated, they say. We're merely shutting you out of every important social and essential function until you knuckle under and play by our rules, they say...

No force? It's what's called "soft force," or "exclusion." And it works, too.
Oh really? Who was in charge of checking vaccination status in restaurants again? Oh, no one. Exaggerate much?
The US isn't the only country in the world. There was such a thing as a 'vaccination pass' that you had to show to do certain things.
amity_blu
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by amity_blu »

What is 'forced vaccination'?

From the article:
'When I discuss forced vaccination in this article, I mean requiring proof of vaccination for entry to settings such as hospitals, care homes, schools or concert venues. For some people, depending on their circumstances, this still amounts to compulsion. I would say that in normal times your vaccination choice is your own, but perhaps during a pandemic this kind of compulsion can be justified.'

This is a narrow and unhelpful definition. However, it is a lead in to an expanded, moral discussion on choice.

This kind of compulsion to show 'proof of vaccination' did not apply everywhere.
For example, in the UK, once covid tests were available - you simply had to show a negative result to visit someone in a care home.

The author compares vaccination in 'normal' times to a 'pandemic'. Personal choice being available/acceptable, usually?

Normal times in certain countries includes outbreaks of dangerous diseases, epidemics. Whether or not vaccinations are available or chosen depends on a variety of factors. This involves a different kind of freedom or obstacles to health.

Sometimes, the freedom of choice is limited by resources, politics, ignorance or fear. I think it is a pity when e.g. the issue of mask-wearing becomes politicised and weaponised. So clearly seen in the US and then, the UK.

Information and guidance is about the prevention of spread of disease and death. Prevention and promotion of health not always a high priority in countries who seek to gain profit from the ill health and misfortune of others. The NHS in the UK has been held up in the past as a good example of universal, personalised care. Things change.

Here is the UK Vaccination Policy:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... /cbp-9076/

The UK’s current routine immunisation schedule provides protection against 14 infections, including measles, meningococcal disease and polio. Most vaccinations are given during childhood but some are aimed at adults, such as vaccination against shingles, where those aged 70-79 years are eligible in the UK.

The Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC), and its devolved nation counterparts, have adopted recommendations made by the World Health Organization (WHO) that at least 95% of children should be immunised against vaccine-preventable diseases.

***
As much as the article provides a fascinating look at 3 ethical systems, it should be clear that what is important are the implications and effects of knowledge or ignorance on individual and collective health. How to be well. Live safely.

The practical view.
From https://msf.org.uk/issues/vaccines:

'According to the World Health Organization (WHO), vaccines prevent 3.5 to 5 million deaths every year from diseases such as diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, influenza, and measles.

Vaccines are particularly vital in regions with limited access to medical care. They help prevent epidemics and reduce the burden on fragile health systems.

The COVID-19 pandemic severely disrupted health services in many areas. Vaccine production and delivery were affected, and millions of children missed routine vaccinations. Since 2020, this has created alarming immunity gaps, especially in vulnerable communities.'

Back to philosophy and ethical issues. Not always easy when even the medics and scientists disagree on the best policy or guidance. When a scary and new pandemic comes along, people do their best to survive. Decisions are taken on best knowledge and experience available.

Important health issues and prevention should not be developed according to the false beliefs of powerful, ignorant politicians with vested interests in self and power.
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accelafine
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by accelafine »

amity_blu wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:14 am What is 'forced vaccination'?

From the article:
'When I discuss forced vaccination in this article, I mean requiring proof of vaccination for entry to settings such as hospitals, care homes, schools or concert venues. For some people, depending on their circumstances, this still amounts to compulsion. I would say that in normal times your vaccination choice is your own, but perhaps during a pandemic this kind of compulsion can be justified.'

This is a narrow and unhelpful definition. However, it is a lead in to an expanded, moral discussion on choice.

This kind of compulsion to show 'proof of vaccination' did not apply everywhere.
For example, in the UK, once covid tests were available - you simply had to show a negative result to visit someone in a care home.

The author compares vaccination in 'normal' times to a 'pandemic'. Personal choice being available/acceptable, usually?

Normal times in certain countries includes outbreaks of dangerous diseases, epidemics. Whether or not vaccinations are available or chosen depends on a variety of factors. This involves a different kind of freedom or obstacles to health.

Sometimes, the freedom of choice is limited by resources, politics, ignorance or fear. I think it is a pity when e.g. the issue of mask-wearing becomes politicised and weaponised. So clearly seen in the US and then, the UK.

Information and guidance is about the prevention of spread of disease and death. Prevention and promotion of health not always a high priority in countries who seek to gain profit from the ill health and misfortune of others. The NHS in the UK has been held up in the past as a good example of universal, personalised care. Things change.

Here is the UK Vaccination Policy:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... /cbp-9076/

The UK’s current routine immunisation schedule provides protection against 14 infections, including measles, meningococcal disease and polio. Most vaccinations are given during childhood but some are aimed at adults, such as vaccination against shingles, where those aged 70-79 years are eligible in the UK.

The Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC), and its devolved nation counterparts, have adopted recommendations made by the World Health Organization (WHO) that at least 95% of children should be immunised against vaccine-preventable diseases.

***
As much as the article provides a fascinating look at 3 ethical systems, it should be clear that what is important are the implications and effects of knowledge or ignorance on individual and collective health. How to be well. Live safely.

The practical view.
From https://msf.org.uk/issues/vaccines:

'According to the World Health Organization (WHO), vaccines prevent 3.5 to 5 million deaths every year from diseases such as diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, influenza, and measles.

Vaccines are particularly vital in regions with limited access to medical care. They help prevent epidemics and reduce the burden on fragile health systems.

The COVID-19 pandemic severely disrupted health services in many areas. Vaccine production and delivery were affected, and millions of children missed routine vaccinations. Since 2020, this has created alarming immunity gaps, especially in vulnerable communities.'

Back to philosophy and ethical issues. Not always easy when even the medics and scientists disagree on the best policy or guidance. When a scary and new pandemic comes along, people do their best to survive. Decisions are taken on best knowledge and experience available.

Important health issues and prevention should not be developed according to the false beliefs of powerful, ignorant politicians with vested interests in self and power.
Can no one think for themselves any more without using AI?
amity_blu
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by amity_blu »

accelafine wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 10:37 am Can no one think for themselves any more without using AI?
Where in the post do you perceive that I used AI to think?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Immanuel Can »

LuckyR wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 6:48 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 7:24 pm
LuckyR wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:37 am In the article the author stipulates that "forced" vaccination only means that in order to work at a hospital or fly on a plane you have to show proof of vaccination, thus her use of that word is very different from the common meaning of the word. Flying on a plane isn't a right, it's a privilege, thus everyone in her theoretical situation is free to be unvaccinated. No "force" required.
Yes. You can't travel. You can't cross the border. You can't go to a restaurant, a movie theatre, or a church. You can't join a club. You can't see your elderly loved ones, or any younger ones outside your "bubble". You can't go to school. You can't take a job, or keep the one you have. You can't see your neighbours. You're not allowed to go the grocery store...etc.

But no "force" is being used, they say. And your rights are not being violated, they say. We're merely shutting you out of every important social and essential function until you knuckle under and play by our rules, they say...

No force? It's what's called "soft force," or "exclusion." And it works, too.
Oh really? Who was in charge of checking vaccination status in restaurants again? Oh, no one. Exaggerate much?
Actually, where I live, the restaurant owners enforced it under strict direction of the government, and had to do so rigorously, under penalty of losing their right to be open at all. If you did not show your vaccination card, you were refused service.

So "exaggerate"? Not a bit. I'm only listing exactly what happened. And I notice you couldn't take issue with any of the rest. Nitpicking, much?
Walker
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Walker »

Philosophy Now wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 3:27 pm Naina Krishnamurthy asks if it’s ethical or egregious.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/170/Forced_Vaccination
Imagine it is 2021, during the Pandemic. Let’s suppose your neighbor is an elderly lady who makes great cookies, and she’s akin to a grandmother to you. One day her family alerts you that unfortunately she’s in the hospital with COVID , on life support, and her doctors think she likely caught it from an unvaccinated carrier. Guiltily, you remember visiting her last week for some of her cookies. You didn’t realize your wish to protect your bodily rights to go unvaccinated could risk her life.
Was the Covid-19 vaccine designed to reduce the risk of transmitting the virus?
Was the Covid-19 vaccine designed to reduce the risk being infected?
Was the Covid-19 vaccine designed to reduce the symptoms?

Forced vaccination assumes that the purpose of the vaccine is to prevent transmission.
The actual purpose of the vaccine is to reduce the risk of being infected oneself.
If the purpose of the vaccine was just to reduce symptoms, it wasn't really a vaccine now, was it.

The same can be said for forced silence.
The assumed purpose of a gag order is to prevent intellectual transmission.
The actual purpose of a gag order is to provide immunity from hearing the intellectual transmission.
Walker
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Walker »

After human reasoning, we consult AI

Question:
AI, did the polio vaccine prevent transmission of polio?

AI answer:
Polio vaccines have had different effects on transmission depending on the type of vaccine used. The two types are the Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV), which prevents transmission effectively but is no longer used in many countries, and the Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV), which prevents disease but not transmission.
Impenitent
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Re: Forced Vaccination

Post by Impenitent »

the best way to halt transmission is to remove the clutch...

-Imp
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