Christianity

[Belinda]

I don't think God is pleased with anything that's going on in Israel, on either side. I also don't assume any false moral equivalency between the sides, or take sides. I assume, rather, that there are real villains and evil-doers roving around there, and it's only God who knows which ones they really are. I'm not God, to go about making such a call. And to override what men do with history is not up to me.

You’ve remodeled your story. Before it was that the only option was that Hamas and the Palestinian fighters must “lay down their arms and surrender to Israel” (a paraphrase) since, you said then, they had no right to resistance.

What you are saying, going further, is that you are unqualified to make any judgment of anyone, in any situation, anywhere. Convenient!

Anybody may refine their ideas, Alexis.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't think God is pleased with anything that's going on in Israel, on either side. I also don't assume any false moral equivalency between the sides, or take sides. I assume, rather, that there are real villains and evil-doers roving around there, and it's only God who knows which ones they really are. I'm not God, to go about making such a call. And to override what men do with history is not up to me.

You’ve remodeled your story.

No, you failed to read Gary's question. It was...

Do you think it's wrong for people to protest Israel's continued prosecution of the war?

It's not wrong for anybody to protest any war. At the same time, you must know that protest has little effect on wars.

[Belinda]

What do you "deem" you deserve," if I may ask?

If my belief rested on personal experience, you'd be right. But God Himself has told us what is to come, on what basis, and for whom...and He surely knows.

However, Sagan now has experience instead of salvation. That's the source of his present certainty. I'm not sure he's happy with his choice, though...


Religion is man's attempt to earn heaven. I don't do that. I wouldn't be successful, if I tried. The whole Christian message is to trust in what God has done, instead of what you can do. That's why we speak of "salvation," not "wage-earning."

I don't belong to a sect. I belong to the Lord. So do all Christians.

I deserve to go to Hell according to the rather unforgiving judgment that you , perhaps unwittingly, portray to me.

We all do, if we’re honest with ourselves — me as well as you. For Scripture says, “all have sinned,” (Rm. 3:32) and adds, “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom. 6:23)

I am not a Muslim but the Koran makes it clear to me that God's mercy encompasses everything.

I’m afraid you’ll find that this is not what the Koran says…at least, it’s not what the one on my shelf says.

So, if I prayed to God , I would pray "help thou mine unbelief in thy mercy".

That’s actually a great prayer. Why not turn that “if” into a “when,” and find out what happens?

Thank you for telling me that you don't belong to any sect of Christianity. I want to be clear in my mind whether what you write is doctrinal or not.You will be aware that some here think you belong to an evangelical sect of Christianity.

You would be vaguely correct, but only vaguely, since the term “evangelical” is very, very broad indeed. To know about particular doctrines, you’d have to know either that I subscribed to some more precise clerically-invented doctrinal package, or that I was committed to the Scripture itself. The latter is the case.

I don't really know what "I belong to the Lord" means. Literally it is nonsense as you cannot be enslaved to a dead person.

Right. Hence the necessity of the Resurrection. You can’t relate in any way to somebody who’s dead. Well said.

The bond there is of gratitude, not enslavement. But unless you start with something like the little prayer you suggest for yourself, you can’t personally know what it means, because it’s outside the range of experiences possible to the natural person. Salvation comes from God, not from any sort of engineering from the human realm. Human beings cannot drag God down to their level and compel Him to submit to their demands; but God can raise people to the place where they become aware of their need and their choices, and bring them understand the opportunity salvation really is.

It’s all about relationship, as it turns out. And once you’re in it, you understand.

But there are plenty of verses in the Koran and Hadith about God's mercy

1. “My mercy encompasses all things.”
— Qur’an 7:156

2. “Say, ‘O My servants who have transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.’”
— Qur’an 39:53

3. “Your Lord is the Possessor of vast mercy. If He were to seize them for what they earn, He would have hastened punishment for them.”
— Qur’an 18:58

4. “In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.”
— Opening of every chapter (Sūrah) except one

5. “My mercy prevails over My wrath.”
— Hadith Qudsi (Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī; Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim)

6. The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ said:
“Allah has made mercy into one hundred parts. He kept ninety-nine parts with Himself and sent down one part to the earth. From that one part, the creatures are merciful to one another — even a mare lifts its hoof away from its foal fearing that it might harm it.”
— Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, Book of Repentance, 2752

7. “The merciful are shown mercy by the Most Merciful. Be merciful to those on earth, and the One above the heavens will have mercy on you.”
— Jāmi‘ al-Tirmidhī 1924

8. “Allah is happier with the repentance of His servant than one of you is when he finds his lost camel in the desert.”
— Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī, Book of Repentance

[Belinda]

I don't think God is pleased with anything that's going on in Israel, on either side. I also don't assume any false moral equivalency between the sides, or take sides. I assume, rather, that there are real villains and evil-doers roving around there, and it's only God who knows which ones they really are. I'm not God, to go about making such a call. And to override what men do with history is not up to me.

You’ve remodeled your story.

No, you failed to read Gary's question. It was...

Do you think it's wrong for people to protest Israel's continued prosecution of the war?

It's not wrong for anybody to protest any war. At the same time, you must know that protest has little effect on wars.

Depends on what you mean by protest. If you earn your living making bombs for export to Israel you can get another, ethical, job. Now that IS effective protest even if it benefits only your own soul !

Anyway the fact that people do protest in words and demos is good to encourage the others, and for demonstrating that the country that allows the media of free speech and free assembly is a good country

[Belinda]

I propose that in noticing the shenanigan that Immanuel pulls, that we can in that notice one fundamental, and I believe ‘sickly’ element in the metaphysical structure of Christian belief.

It is that, time and again, Immanuel resorts to the power-play based around the threat that soon enough those who do not accept the Savior, and Immanuel’s argument, will end up in hell.

At every juncture Immanuel ‘plays the Devil card’.

It is the “ultimate close” (speaking of salesmanship) and the ultimate conversation winner. In the face of it you are given the option of submission or of rebellion, with the most terrible consequences portended for you if you choose 1) a different way of seeing metaphysical truths (if indeed you believe they exist), or 2) if you simply cannot go along with the entire proposition surrounding “salvation”.

Once you see into this sickly power-dynamic, and as long as you are compelled to remain in a civil conversation with the apologist, you are forced to present alternatives. But in the final analysis and for that Christian working these “Calvin-like” metaphysical arguments, there is no “alternative”. At that point — I say this realistically — that Christian becomes a psychological terrorist or blackmailer. It becomes an insidious game of psychological mind control.

Naturally, in any free-spirit, resistance to the power-play must arise. But two things need to be mentioned:

One is that this Christian in his manoeuvre of control, creates the rebel. This establishes an unbreachable division and polarity in which “the good” present themselves as “the Lord’s” own children, and those who cannot go along as servants of the demonic. It is that crude.

Two is that an intelligent, thoughtful person can and I think should avoid falling into this idea-trap and into the dynamic of a power-play. Why? First, our very intellectual system is based on strict polarities: the excluded middle. It either is, or it is not — it cannot be both. In math, I admit, the middle is excluded. In life it is not. The strict polarity is actually an enormous mistake.

I remember years ago discussing an Indian view (Jaina) where seven predicates are recognized:

Jaina seven-valued logic is a system of argumentation developed by Jaina philosophers and thinkers in ancient India to support and substantiate their theory of pluralism. This argumentation system has seven distinct semantic predicates which may be thought of as seven different truth values.

These seven claims are the following:

Arguably, it (that is, some object) exists (syad asty eva).

Arguably, it does not exist (syan nasty eva).

Arguably, it exists; arguably, it doesn't exist (syad asty eva syan nasty eva).

Arguably, it is non-assertible (syad avaktavyam eva).

Arguably, it exists; arguably, it is non-assertible (syad asty eva syad avaktavyam eva).

Arguably, it doesn't exist; arguably, it is non-assertible (syan nasty eva syad avaktavyam eva).

Arguably, it exists; arguably, it doesn't exist; arguably it is non-assertible (syad asty eva syan nasty eva syad avaktavyam eva).

Thank you! The above, citing Jains and regarding all -or -nothing thinking, is so relevant to my concern about the difficulty of persuading people to eat less meat and dairy. Even consuming a little less does help.

[Immanuel Can]

I deserve to go to Hell according to the rather unforgiving judgment that you , perhaps unwittingly, portray to me.

We all do, if we’re honest with ourselves — me as well as you. For Scripture says, “all have sinned,” (Rm. 3:32) and adds, “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom. 6:23)

I am not a Muslim but the Koran makes it clear to me that God's mercy encompasses everything.

I’m afraid you’ll find that this is not what the Koran says…at least, it’s not what the one on my shelf says.

So, if I prayed to God , I would pray "help thou mine unbelief in thy mercy".

That’s actually a great prayer. Why not turn that “if” into a “when,” and find out what happens?

Thank you for telling me that you don't belong to any sect of Christianity. I want to be clear in my mind whether what you write is doctrinal or not.You will be aware that some here think you belong to an evangelical sect of Christianity.

You would be vaguely correct, but only vaguely, since the term “evangelical” is very, very broad indeed. To know about particular doctrines, you’d have to know either that I subscribed to some more precise clerically-invented doctrinal package, or that I was committed to the Scripture itself. The latter is the case.

I don't really know what "I belong to the Lord" means. Literally it is nonsense as you cannot be enslaved to a dead person.

Right. Hence the necessity of the Resurrection. You can’t relate in any way to somebody who’s dead. Well said.

The bond there is of gratitude, not enslavement. But unless you start with something like the little prayer you suggest for yourself, you can’t personally know what it means, because it’s outside the range of experiences possible to the natural person. Salvation comes from God, not from any sort of engineering from the human realm. Human beings cannot drag God down to their level and compel Him to submit to their demands; but God can raise people to the place where they become aware of their need and their choices, and bring them understand the opportunity salvation really is.

It’s all about relationship, as it turns out. And once you’re in it, you understand.

But there are plenty of verses in the Koran and Hadith about God's mercy

1. “My mercy encompasses all things.”
— Qur’an 7:156

2. “Say, ‘O My servants who have transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.’”
— Qur’an 39:53

3. “Your Lord is the Possessor of vast mercy. If He were to seize them for what they earn, He would have hastened punishment for them.”
— Qur’an 18:58

4. “In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.”
— Opening of every chapter (Sūrah) except one

The rest are not from Koran. The Haddiths say all sorts of other mad things, but I didn't mention them, and they aren't relevant to defending the Koran.

Let's look at what you've got.

#4 is a repeated salutation, like genuflecting, and does not at all say to whom A. is "merciful," and to whom he is not. So it doesn't tell us anything. #1 might be your only case. #2, by its own reckoning, only applies to those already submitted to Islam. #3 doesn't even say who "them" is.

But how about these?

Quran 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve (all non-Muslims) …"

Quran 4:89: "...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...".

Quran 4:104: "...when ye are in safety, observe proper worship. Worship at fixed hours hath been enjoined on the believers. Relent not in pursuit of the enemy.

Quran 9:5 (also known as the "Verse of the Sword"): "...kill the polytheists wherever you find them, capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way".

Quran 47:4 "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain."

Quran 2:190-194: "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil)."

Quran 2:216-217: "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel his people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can."

There's more, of course, but this will do.

So when, in 7:156, it says that A.'s "mercy" extends to "all things," it clearly doesn't mean "all things." Even without the principle of abrogation -- that means that Muslims are not bound to 'early sayings' in the Koran, but to 'later sayings,' this is the conception of "mercy" that's being suggested.

Not much mercy in that.

[Immanuel Can]

You’ve remodeled your story.

No, you failed to read Gary's question. It was...

Do you think it's wrong for people to protest Israel's continued prosecution of the war?

It's not wrong for anybody to protest any war. At the same time, you must know that protest has little effect on wars.

Depends on what you mean by protest.

No, "protesting" is a verbal activity, sometimes supplemented by gestures like the carrying of placards. Let's not pretend it requires more. Having your voice doesn't mean having a right to impede others, loot, burn businesses, bully, hit, spit at folks, call for violence...etc. But these days, all these things get passed off as "protest." They're not. They're low-level violence, at the very best.

[Belinda]

What do you "deem" you deserve," if I may ask?

If my belief rested on personal experience, you'd be right. But God Himself has told us what is to come, on what basis, and for whom...and He surely knows.

However, Sagan now has experience instead of salvation. That's the source of his present certainty. I'm not sure he's happy with his choice, though...


Religion is man's attempt to earn heaven. I don't do that. I wouldn't be successful, if I tried. The whole Christian message is to trust in what God has done, instead of what you can do. That's why we speak of "salvation," not "wage-earning."

I don't belong to a sect. I belong to the Lord. So do all Christians.

I deserve to go to Hell according to the rather unforgiving judgment that you , perhaps unwittingly, portray to me.

We all do, if we’re honest with ourselves — me as well as you. For Scripture says, “all have sinned,” (Rm. 3:32) and adds, “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom. 6:23)

I am not a Muslim but the Koran makes it clear to me that God's mercy encompasses everything.

I’m afraid you’ll find that this is not what the Koran says…at least, it’s not what the one on my shelf says.

So, if I prayed to God , I would pray "help thou mine unbelief in thy mercy".

That’s actually a great prayer. Why not turn that “if” into a “when,” and find out what happens?

Thank you for telling me that you don't belong to any sect of Christianity. I want to be clear in my mind whether what you write is doctrinal or not.You will be aware that some here think you belong to an evangelical sect of Christianity.

You would be vaguely correct, but only vaguely, since the term “evangelical” is very, very broad indeed. To know about particular doctrines, you’d have to know either that I subscribed to some more precise clerically-invented doctrinal package, or that I was committed to the Scripture itself. The latter is the case.

I don't really know what "I belong to the Lord" means. Literally it is nonsense as you cannot be enslaved to a dead person.

Right. Hence the necessity of the Resurrection. You can’t relate in any way to somebody who’s dead. Well said.

The bond there is of gratitude, not enslavement. But unless you start with something like the little prayer you suggest for yourself, you can’t personally know what it means, because it’s outside the range of experiences possible to the natural person. Salvation comes from God, not from any sort of engineering from the human realm. Human beings cannot drag God down to their level and compel Him to submit to their demands; but God can raise people to the place where they become aware of their need and their choices, and bring them understand the opportunity salvation really is.

It’s all about relationship, as it turns out. And once you’re in it, you understand.

Thanks, but my unbelief is rational unbelief. My prayer "help thou mine unbelief " is addressed to the God of reason not supernatural faith. Sure, you did explain the Resurrection . I accept it happened but not as "a conjuring trick with bones" to quote a former bishop of Durham. The Resurrection is peculiar to Christianity because Jesus is a constantly moving icon.

Islam has no constantly moving icon. But I still maintain that the Koran is easier to understand than The Bible>

[Immanuel Can]

I still maintain that the Koran is easier to understand than The Bible>

It's certainly "easier to understand." I'll grant you that. There's not much to know in the Koran, that's for sure.

[Belinda]

I still maintain that Thethe Koran is easier to understand than The Bible>

It's certainly "easier to understand." I'll grant you that. There's not much to know in the Koran, that's for sure.

I wish I has said the Koran explains God's mercy in a simpler more explicit way than does The Bible. The Bible and Islam share the same heritage

[Immanuel Can]

I still maintain that Thethe Koran is easier to understand than The Bible>

It's certainly "easier to understand." I'll grant you that. There's not much to know in the Koran, that's for sure.

I wish I has said the Koran explains God's mercy in a simpler more explicit way than does The Bible. The Bible and Islam share the same heritage

They don't, actually. That's a myth. And the conception of "mercy" one finds in the Koran is nothing like that exposited by the Bible.

The Koran is "easier to understand" because it's like the difference between reading the Encyclopedia Britannica and reading The Beano.

[popeye1945]

The Koran is a recipe book for creating psychopaths, with very explicit instructions to kill the unbelievers.

[iambiguous]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.

The Bible tells us that God himself passed judgement on his creation. According to Genesis 1:31, he “saw all that he had made, and it was very good.” Marking his own homework, he concluded that it was perfect.

Then the part where all of these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

...either are or are not able to concur regarding the existence of [and then the description of] this Christian God. Even in regard to the Bible itself there are Christians all up and down the political spectrum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_left

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right

The excuse that this would have remained the case had it not been for the Original Sin of the first humans does not work: given that man is God’s creation, it is not clear that the responsibility for things going awry can be distanced from God. It also seems unfair to extend the punishment visited on humanity to non-human sentient creatures.

Of course, for any number of men and women eager to sustain their own moral commandments all the way to the grave, comes the part where that is rewarded with immortality and salvation. And what part of God's "mysterious ways" does that not justify Original Sin? And anything that happens to all the other animals is clearly justified by something written somewhere in the Bible.

It seems therefore that those who want to reconcile the fact of suffering – which seems fated to accompany the emergence of conscious physical beings – with the notion of an omnibenevolent God, may not be entirely reassured by the idea of a God of limited power.

Okay, but given all that is at stake on both sides of the grave, millions still manage to make that leap of faith. Or, figuring they've got nothing to lose, make that wager. I'd do it myself if I could figure out how.

[Belinda]

The Koran is a recipe book for creating psychopaths, with very explicit instructions to kill the unbelievers.

As a matter of fact Jihad is firstly for making oneself a better person , and violence if undertaken as lesser jihad is tightly bound to ethical terms and conditions, and is never a personal decision.

[seeds]

The Koran is a recipe book for creating psychopaths, with very explicit instructions to kill the unbelievers.

It's not just the Koran.

The instructions might not be explicit, but it seems there's something in America's educational system, or drinking water, or something else that creates murderous psychopaths that manage to rise to the highest echelons of American politics where they can get away with all sorts of dastardly deeds,...

...including the wanton slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in unprovoked wars, and the condoning and supporting of genocide.
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