New Discovery

[Belinda]

Belinda, I didn't see your thoughts regarding farm animals.

Empathy towards farm animals will mean not breeding food animals either for dairy or flesh eating. Kindness towards food animals inevitably involves more expensive food. Kindness towards animals involves no dairy food whatsoever. Dairy food is obtained by stealing mothers' milk from baby calves who are then cruelly used or destroyed.

peacegirl wrote:
As far as breeding animals for dairy or flesh eating, it would be done with loving care toward these animals. The cruelty that exists in how animals are raised is heartbreaking but that is because people have become insensitive to their plight due to their own need to survive. They have been compelled to believe that animals are just property with no feelings, or they couldn't do what they do. But this will change in due time when people won't have to save money by cutting shortcuts such as cramping animals into small cages and other inhumane practices.

Part of your proposed solution to higher price of ethical food is basic living wage across the board. While basic living wage is good as distributive ethic it does not sort the fact that ethical treatment of animals is expensive and always will be. At the present time only higher earners can afford to buy ethical animal products.

When basic living wage happens there will be fewer higher earners and ethical animal products will be even more costly.

Human nature is such that people enjoy eating other animals. It stands to reason that any Utopia will be totally vegan. If you have any counter-argument I'd be glad to read it. Vague generalisations don't chew the pie.

No, it does not stand to reason that veganism will win out. Some people need animal protein to function. Would you tell a lion not to eat animal meat? The lion would die. This isn't even about spirituality. It is about survival, and you cannot tell people what their physical constitution needs. In the new world, you will mind your own business and let others decide, based on their conscience what they are justified and not justified to do. What will matter is that animals will always be treated humanely.

What you imply is true, that some animal farming methods are kinder than others. I have studied animal husbandry and it is true that some methods are far more humane than others. If Lessan's book persuaded people to consume less meat and dairy I'd be well pleased,

No, if people need to eat meat or imbibe dairy for their preservation, you cannot tell them to swallow plant-based foods that weaken them or even sicken them because they are missing essential nutrients that their body cannot get from plants alone. And who are you to tell them what their body requires? This question isn't even on the radar at this point. What matters most is the prevention of war and crime. Then, developing humane efforts among wild and domesticated animals, will be an outgrowth of this miraculous change in human conduct across the board.

The above is not cogent. Supernatural miracles don't exist. The culture of human entitlement needs changing as a whole.

[peacegirl]

Whatever peacegirl wrote to quote me this time I haven't even bothered to read. The quote system is perfectly simple. Somebody who is determined to fail at it is wasting my time.

Maybe it is wasting your time. This is a good test.

[peacegirl]

Part of your proposed solution to higher price of ethical food is basic living wage across the board. While basic living wage is good as distributive ethic it does not sort the fact that ethical treatment of animals is expensive and always will be. At the present time only higher earners can afford to buy ethical animal products.

When basic living wage happens there will be fewer higher earners and ethical animal products will be even more costly.

Human nature is such that people enjoy eating other animals. It stands to reason that any Utopia will be totally vegan. If you have any counter-argument I'd be glad to read it. Vague generalisations don't chew the pie.



What you imply is true, that some animal farming methods are kinder than others. I have studied animal husbandry and it is true that some methods are far more humane than others. If Lessan's book persuaded people to consume less meat and dairy I'd be well pleased,



The above is not cogent. Supernatural miracles don't exist. The culture of human entitlement needs changing as a whole.

This has nothing to do with supernatural miracles. A person who needs red meat does not mean he feels entitled. It's a matter of survival. Some people cannot live on plants alone. I believe that I love animals just as much as you, if not more. Lessans' book persuades no one to do anything. It's not scientology or some kind of cult. It leaves each person's conscience to determine what is right and wrong, not you or me. P.S. If you've killed a fly, a roach, an ant, or a mosquito, then you're a hypocrite.

[Atla]

By the way, why do you uncritically believe everything your father said? Even you must realize that that's not normal?

[peacegirl]

By the way, why do you uncritically believe everything your father said? Even you must realize that that's not normal?

There you go again, insinuating that this whole thing must be because I have a daddy complex. This is nuts.

[FlashDangerpants]

Whatever peacegirl wrote to quote me this time I haven't even bothered to read. The quote system is perfectly simple. Somebody who is determined to fail at it is wasting my time.

Maybe it is wasting your time. This is a good test.

meh

[Atla]

By the way, why do you uncritically believe everything your father said? Even you must realize that that's not normal?

There you go again, insinuating that this whole thing must be because I have a daddy complex. This is nuts.

Either you're doing this for money or you have some kind of complex. Can't find a better explanation seeing how easily your father's claims are refuted.

[peacegirl]

By the way, why do you uncritically believe everything your father said? Even you must realize that that's not normal?

There you go again, insinuating that this whole thing must be because I have a daddy complex. This is nuts.

Either you're doing this for money or you have some kind of complex. Can't find a better explanation seeing how easily your father's claims are refuted.

But they are not refuted Atla. You gave an example of lending your colleague money that you thought disproved the movement in the direction of "greater satisfaction," but you failed to understand that every choice we make is in this direction. And even if it seemed to be very dissatisfying while making that choice to lend her the money, it offered greater satisfaction than not lending it at that moment and for whatever reason. You did not disprove "greater satisfaction" at all, but if you keep insisting that you did, you will continue to argue that he was wrong. But he wasn't wrong, and it isn't because I'm a daddy's girl.

[Atla]

There you go again, insinuating that this whole thing must be because I have a daddy complex. This is nuts.

Either you're doing this for money or you have some kind of complex. Can't find a better explanation seeing how easily your father's claims are refuted.

But they are not refuted Atla. You gave an example of lending your colleague money that you thought disproved the movement in the direction of "greater satisfaction," but you failed to understand that every choice we make is in this direction. And even if it seemed to be very dissatisfying while making that choice to lend her the money, it offered greater satisfaction than not lending it at that moment and for whatever reason. You did not disprove "greater satisfaction" at all, but if you keep insisting that you did, you will continue to argue that he was wrong. But he wasn't wrong, and it isn't because I'm a daddy's girl.

See, after I corrected you like 5-10 times on the above, and you're still sticking to it, we can say that you're simply lying. So why are you lying? Money or complex? I think it's a complex but which complex?

[peacegirl]

Either you're doing this for money or you have some kind of complex. Can't find a better explanation seeing how easily your father's claims are refuted.

But they are not refuted Atla. You gave an example of lending your colleague money that you thought disproved the movement in the direction of "greater satisfaction," but you failed to understand that every choice we make is in this direction. And even if it seemed to be very dissatisfying while making that choice to lend her the money, it offered greater satisfaction than not lending it at that moment and for whatever reason. You did not disprove "greater satisfaction" at all, but if you keep insisting that you did, you will continue to argue that he was wrong. But he wasn't wrong, and it isn't because I'm a daddy's girl.

See, after I corrected you like 5-10 times on the above, and you're still sticking to it, we can say that you're simply lying. So why are you lying? Money or complex? I think it's a complex but which complex?

Where did you correct me 5 or 10 times on the above? Never mind. Just explain to me again where you think he was wrong? I hope you won't repeat the same thing because the example you gave, thinking you disproved him, is 100% false. You and FlashDangerpants think that you were both right, but you were both wrong in your analysis. If his premises were wrong, then he would be wrong, but you have not disproven him wrong if you were being honest with yourself.

[Atla]

But they are not refuted Atla. You gave an example of lending your colleague money that you thought disproved the movement in the direction of "greater satisfaction," but you failed to understand that every choice we make is in this direction. And even if it seemed to be very dissatisfying while making that choice to lend her the money, it offered greater satisfaction than not lending it at that moment and for whatever reason. You did not disprove "greater satisfaction" at all, but if you keep insisting that you did, you will continue to argue that he was wrong. But he wasn't wrong, and it isn't because I'm a daddy's girl.

See, after I corrected you like 5-10 times on the above, and you're still sticking to it, we can say that you're simply lying. So why are you lying? Money or complex? I think it's a complex but which complex?

Where did you correct me 5 or 10 times on the above? Never mind. Just explain to me again where you think he was wrong? I hope you won't just repeat the same thing because thinking you disproved him in this example was 100% false.

Feigning ignorance is another form of lying. Why are you lying peacegirl?

[peacegirl]

See, after I corrected you like 5-10 times on the above, and you're still sticking to it, we can say that you're simply lying. So why are you lying? Money or complex? I think it's a complex but which complex?

Where did you correct me 5 or 10 times on the above? Never mind. Just explain to me again where you think he was wrong? I hope you won't just repeat the same thing because thinking you disproved him in this example was 100% false.

Feigning ignorance is another form of lying. Why are you lying peacegirl?

I really don't know where you think you proved him wrong other than that one example. I am not lying or feigning ignorance. This is getting stupid. Explain yourself or move on.

[Atla]

I really don't know where you think you proved him wrong other than that one example. I am not lying or being willfully ignorant. This is getting stupid. Explain yourself or move on.

There are so many things wrong with what you say, I don't even know where to begin. Maybe here: you deliberately lie about what proof even means, just like your father did. Neither your father nor I can give absolute proof by telling a story. You have investment in that lie. Is that because of a complex?

[Atla]

We will have a Golden Age when these despicable humans will get what they deserve.

[peacegirl]

I really don't know where you think you proved him wrong other than that one example. I am not lying or feigning ignorance. This is getting stupid. Explain yourself or move on.

There are so many things wrong with what you say, I don't even know where to begin. Maybe here: you deliberately lie about what proof even means, just like your father did. Neither your father nor I can give absolute proof by telling a story. You have investment in it. Is that because of a complex?

If you had even cared to understand, you would have known how each step of his proof was as clear as day. Saying this was a story is laughable. Of course I'm invested in it but not because he was my father. You are convinced in your disbelief (and that's all it is) that he couldn't have made a discovery of this magnitude. But telling me that I have a daddy complex or I'm out for money is a waste of my time. Unless you can pinpoint where you think he was wrong, we're done. Your belief that humans need to be genetically engineered in order to change humanity is really scary stuff. Talk about playing God.