New Discovery

[peacegirl]

No it doesn't. You are not familiar with the works of any philosopher in this field at all are you?

Why the obvious put down, as if I have to discuss every philosopher that ever existed to prove that he was right all along. Do you actually think he did not know these theories on free will and determinism? Do you think he skipped over all of the philosophers that came before him? You're out of your mind.
[/i]

He left school at 14 and repeatedly references one specific "philosopher" as the guy who speaks against determinism. I forget the name, but that guy is just a writer of a couple of history of philosophy books for the Reader's Digest crowd in the 30s and is utterly forgotten today.

He just happened to have written The Story of Civilization. I'm surprised you didn't know who he was. I thought you knew about every well-known philosopher!

Influential American historian and philosopher

Will Durant was an influential American historian and philosopher, best known for his eleven-volume work, "The Story of Civilization," which he co-authored with his wife, Ariel Durant. His approach to philosophy emphasized a total perspective, aiming to unify and humanize historical knowledge, making it accessible to the general public. Durant's significant contributions to philosophy and history earned him the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968 and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977. His works, such as "The Story of Philosophy," have sold millions of copies and continue to influence readers' understanding of history and philosophy today.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Story of Civilization

A set of all eleven volumes
Author
Will Durant
Ariel Durant
Language English
Subject History
Published 1935–1975
Publisher Simon & Schuster
Publication place United States
Pages 13,549
ISBN 978-1567310238

The Story of Civilization (1935–1975), by husband and wife Will and Ariel Durant, is an eleven-volume set of books covering both Eastern and Western civilizations for the general reader, with a particular emphasis on European (Western) history.

The series was written over a span of four decades.

The first six volumes of The Story of Civilization are credited to Will Durant alone, with Ariel recognized only in the acknowledgements. Beginning with The Age of Reason Begins, Ariel is credited as a co-author. In the preface to the first volume, Durant states his intention to make the series in five volumes, although this would not turn out to be the case.[1]

The series won a Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968 with the tenth volume in the series, Rousseau and Revolution.[2]

The volumes were best sellers and sold well for many years. Sets of them were frequently offered by book clubs. An unabridged audiobook production of all eleven volumes was produced by the Books on Tape company and was read by Alexander Adams (also known as Grover Gardner).[3]

Volumes
I. Our Oriental Heritage (1935)
This volume covers Near Eastern history until the fall of the Achaemenid Empire in the 330s BC, and the history of India, China, and Japan up to the 1930s.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 1 ~ Our Oriental Heritage ~ Being a History of Civilization in Egypt and the Near East to the Death of Alexander; and in India, China and Japan from the Beginning to Our Own Day; with an Introduction on the Nature and Foundations of Civilization.

II. The Life of Greece (1939)
This volume covers Ancient Greece and the Hellenistic Near East down to the Roman conquest.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 2 ~ The Life of Greece ~ A History of Greek Government, Industry, Manners, Morals, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Literature and Art from the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest.

III. Caesar and Christ (1944)
The volume covers the history of Rome and of Christianity until the time of Constantine the Great.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 3 ~ Caesar and Christ ~ This Brilliantly Written History Surveys All Aspects of Roman Life ~ Politics, Economics, Literature, Art, Morals. It Ends with the Conflict of Pagan and Christian Forces and Raises the Curtain on the Great Struggle between Church and State.

IV. The Age of Faith (1950)
This volume covers the Middle Ages in both Europe and the Near East, from the time of Constantine I to that of Dante Alighieri.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 4 ~ The Age of Faith ~ A History of Medieval Civilization ~ Christian, Islamic, and Judaic ~ from Constantine to Dante ~ A.D. 325 - 1300.

V. The Renaissance (1953)
This volume covers the history of Italy from c.1300 to the mid 16th century, focusing on the Italian Renaissance.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 5 ~ The Renaissance ~ A History of Civilization in Italy from the Birth of Petrarch to the Death of Titian ~ 1304 to 1576.

VI. The Reformation (1957)
This volume covers the history of Europe outside of Italy from around 1300 to 1564, focusing on the Protestant Reformation.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 6 ~ The Reformation ~ A History of European Civilization from Wyclif to Calvin ~ 1300 - 1564.

VII. The Age of Reason Begins (1961)
This volume covers the history of Europe and the Near East from 1559 to 1648.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 7 ~ The Age of Reason Begins ~ A History of European Civilization in the Period of Shakespeare, Bacon, Montaigne, Rembrandt, Galileo and Descartes ~ 1558 - 1648.

VIII. The Age of Louis XIV (1963)
This volume covers the period of Louis XIV of France in Europe and the Near East.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 8 ~ The Age of Louis XIV ~ A History of European Civilization in the Period of Pascal, Molière, Cromwell, Milton, Peter the Great, Newton and Spinoza: 1648-1715.

IX. The Age of Voltaire (1965)
This volume covers the period of the Age of Enlightenment, as exemplified by Voltaire, focusing on the period between 1715 and 1756 in France, Britain, and Germany.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 9 ~ The Age of Voltaire ~ A History of Civilization in Western Europe from 1715 to 1756, with Special Emphasis on the Conflict between Religion and Philosophy.

X. Rousseau and Revolution (1967)

Ariel and Will Durant with a copy of Rousseau and Revolution in 1967
This volume centers on Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his times. It received the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968.[4]

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 10 ~ Rousseau and Revolution ~ A History of Civilization in France, England, and Germany from 1756, and in the Remainder of Europe from 1715 to 1789.

XI. The Age of Napoleon (1975)
This volume centers on Napoleon I of France and his times.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 11 ~ The Age of Napoleon ~ A History of European Civilization from 1789 to 1815.

So yeah, I don't think your dad knew a lot about philosophy, and when I mentioned a very influential yet not actually important paper from the 1960s by Strawson at the start of this thread your response was to ask ChatGPT how to argue against Strawson. So no, I don't think you are any better.

I understand Strawson's take on free will and moral responsibility, but he doesn't have the answer.

So yes please. Rather than saying "the philosophers" all think that determinism means we are forced to act against our will, even though everyone here disagrees with that assessment, tell us which philosophers you are actually speaking against so that we can compare findings without bullshitting each other.

No, I'm not here to bullshit but I'm also not here to discuss other philosophers who don't have the answer FlashDangerpants. I know what the basic argument is about, and THEY DON'T HAVE IT!

[FlashDangerpants]

Why the obvious put down, as if I have to discuss every philosopher that ever existed to prove that he was right all along. Do you actually think he did not know these theories on free will and determinism? Do you think he skipped over all of the philosophers that came before him? You're out of your mind.
[/i]

He left school at 14 and repeatedly references one specific "philosopher" as the guy who speaks against determinism. I forget the name, but that guy is just a writer of a couple of history of philosophy books for the Reader's Digest crowd in the 30s and is utterly forgotten today.

He just happened to have written The Story of Civilization. I'm surprised you didn't know who he was. I thought you knew about every well-known philosopher!

Influential American historian and philosopher

Will Durant was an influential American historian and philosopher, best known for his eleven-volume work, "The Story of Civilization," which he co-authored with his wife, Ariel Durant. His approach to philosophy emphasized a total perspective, aiming to unify and humanize historical knowledge, making it accessible to the general public. Durant's significant contributions to philosophy and history earned him the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968 and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977. His works, such as "The Story of Philosophy," have sold millions of copies and continue to influence readers' understanding of history and philosophy today.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Story of Civilization

A set of all eleven volumes
Author
Will Durant
Ariel Durant
Language English
Subject History
Published 1935–1975
Publisher Simon & Schuster
Publication place United States
Pages 13,549
ISBN 978-1567310238

The Story of Civilization (1935–1975), by husband and wife Will and Ariel Durant, is an eleven-volume set of books covering both Eastern and Western civilizations for the general reader, with a particular emphasis on European (Western) history.

The series was written over a span of four decades.

The first six volumes of The Story of Civilization are credited to Will Durant alone, with Ariel recognized only in the acknowledgements. Beginning with The Age of Reason Begins, Ariel is credited as a co-author. In the preface to the first volume, Durant states his intention to make the series in five volumes, although this would not turn out to be the case.[1]

The series won a Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968 with the tenth volume in the series, Rousseau and Revolution.[2]

The volumes were best sellers and sold well for many years. Sets of them were frequently offered by book clubs. An unabridged audiobook production of all eleven volumes was produced by the Books on Tape company and was read by Alexander Adams (also known as Grover Gardner).[3]

Volumes
I. Our Oriental Heritage (1935)
This volume covers Near Eastern history until the fall of the Achaemenid Empire in the 330s BC, and the history of India, China, and Japan up to the 1930s.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 1 ~ Our Oriental Heritage ~ Being a History of Civilization in Egypt and the Near East to the Death of Alexander; and in India, China and Japan from the Beginning to Our Own Day; with an Introduction on the Nature and Foundations of Civilization.

II. The Life of Greece (1939)
This volume covers Ancient Greece and the Hellenistic Near East down to the Roman conquest.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 2 ~ The Life of Greece ~ A History of Greek Government, Industry, Manners, Morals, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Literature and Art from the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest.

III. Caesar and Christ (1944)
The volume covers the history of Rome and of Christianity until the time of Constantine the Great.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 3 ~ Caesar and Christ ~ This Brilliantly Written History Surveys All Aspects of Roman Life ~ Politics, Economics, Literature, Art, Morals. It Ends with the Conflict of Pagan and Christian Forces and Raises the Curtain on the Great Struggle between Church and State.

IV. The Age of Faith (1950)
This volume covers the Middle Ages in both Europe and the Near East, from the time of Constantine I to that of Dante Alighieri.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 4 ~ The Age of Faith ~ A History of Medieval Civilization ~ Christian, Islamic, and Judaic ~ from Constantine to Dante ~ A.D. 325 - 1300.

V. The Renaissance (1953)
This volume covers the history of Italy from c.1300 to the mid 16th century, focusing on the Italian Renaissance.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 5 ~ The Renaissance ~ A History of Civilization in Italy from the Birth of Petrarch to the Death of Titian ~ 1304 to 1576.

VI. The Reformation (1957)
This volume covers the history of Europe outside of Italy from around 1300 to 1564, focusing on the Protestant Reformation.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 6 ~ The Reformation ~ A History of European Civilization from Wyclif to Calvin ~ 1300 - 1564.

VII. The Age of Reason Begins (1961)
This volume covers the history of Europe and the Near East from 1559 to 1648.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 7 ~ The Age of Reason Begins ~ A History of European Civilization in the Period of Shakespeare, Bacon, Montaigne, Rembrandt, Galileo and Descartes ~ 1558 - 1648.

VIII. The Age of Louis XIV (1963)
This volume covers the period of Louis XIV of France in Europe and the Near East.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 8 ~ The Age of Louis XIV ~ A History of European Civilization in the Period of Pascal, Molière, Cromwell, Milton, Peter the Great, Newton and Spinoza: 1648-1715.

IX. The Age of Voltaire (1965)
This volume covers the period of the Age of Enlightenment, as exemplified by Voltaire, focusing on the period between 1715 and 1756 in France, Britain, and Germany.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 9 ~ The Age of Voltaire ~ A History of Civilization in Western Europe from 1715 to 1756, with Special Emphasis on the Conflict between Religion and Philosophy.

X. Rousseau and Revolution (1967)

Ariel and Will Durant with a copy of Rousseau and Revolution in 1967
This volume centers on Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his times. It received the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968.[4]

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 10 ~ Rousseau and Revolution ~ A History of Civilization in France, England, and Germany from 1756, and in the Remainder of Europe from 1715 to 1789.

XI. The Age of Napoleon (1975)
This volume centers on Napoleon I of France and his times.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 11 ~ The Age of Napoleon ~ A History of European Civilization from 1789 to 1815.

So yeah, I don't think your dad knew a lot about philosophy, and when I mentioned a very influential yet not actually important paper from the 1960s by Strawson at the start of this thread your response was to ask ChatGPT how to argue against Strawson. So no, I don't think you are any better.

I understand Strawson's take on free will and moral responsibility, but he doesn't have the answer.

So yes please. Rather than saying "the philosophers" all think that determinism means we are forced to act against our will, even though everyone here disagrees with that assessment, tell us which philosophers you are actually speaking against so that we can compare findings without bullshitting each other.

No, I'm not here to bullshit but I'm also not here to discuss other philosophers who don't have the answer FlashDangerpants. I know what the basic argument is about, and THEY DON'T HAVE IT!

There is no important argument associated with Will Durant. Everything you listed there is just Reader's Digest history of phil stuff. I got the decades wrong I suppose.

If you are telling us that we are wrong about how philosophers actually define and understand the free will debate, you should be in a position to tell us which philsosophers your are referring to. Stop bullshitting us.

[FlashDangerpants]

And for fuck's sake. Every time you use the quoite function you make the same stupid mistake. Just remove line that begins [quote=FlashDangerpants post_id=

If you really need to type your own tags all the time.

[Atla]

Because it's not fake. It has been a problem in this debate for thousands of years. If will is not free, how can we blame anyone for what they are compelled to do. Punishment is a partial deterrent, and there are good reasons for blame and punishment in today's world, but it still does not answer the question as to why many philosophers could not get past the implications. They turned back to free will because they could not see how we could not blame and punish if will was not free. That IS the elephant in the room and the crux of the problem. Compatibilism has tried to do this very thing by making it appear that these two ideologies are compatible, but they did not accomplish this. All they did was to create a fake definition of free will, allowing people to be blamed as long as they were not addicts, didn't have OCD, or didn't have a gun to their head. My hope is that soon you'll see that this is a genuine discovery. I have had many years studying this, and you've only had a few days.

Because we may not have free will, but we still have everyday will. We have a mind, personality, psychology, desires, wants, needs, traits, preferences, we can learn, change, adapt etc. etc. etc. That ultimately everything is determined, may be relevant when someone is hopelessly insane or has other insurmountable difficulties, but otherwise it's not too important.

That's how you blame someone under determinism. Who cares about hard determinist idiot philosophers? Why base a book on a fake elephant?

I have had many years studying this, and you've only had a few days.

I know more about determinism than you could comprehend.

You're right, it doesn't if we don't understand the two-sided equation. We can't throw out punishment or people would grab anything that wasn't nailed down. That is why you need to be patient to see how this thing plays out.

Wishful thinking of a child who was shielded from real people in the real world.

The eternal present means that time is not a dimension like space.

No it doesn't. Again you're incorrectly mixing two takes. The correct mixing is that past present and future coexist in the eternal now.

That is why animals live only in the present. They know nothing of the past because they don't have the ability to access what happened in their brains to make the connections that humans can.

You don't know what goes on in an animal's mind.

We can think of the past and project what may happen in the future, but the reality is that all we have is the present.

You don't know that either. Imo it's actually pretty crazy to believe that the past disappears and the future doesn't exist yet.

We use the past to live our lives which is why the memory part of our brains are so important and give us our humanity, for without it, we would not be able to connect past experiences with what is happening in the here and now in order to make better decisions.

Memory gives memory, not humanity. Animals have memory too btw, in case you believe otherwise.

[peacegirl]

Why the obvious put down, as if I have to discuss every philosopher that ever existed to prove that he was right all along. Do you actually think he did not know these theories on free will and determinism? Do you think he skipped over all of the philosophers that came before him? You're out of your mind.
[/i]

He left school at 14 and repeatedly references one specific "philosopher" as the guy who speaks against determinism. I forget the name, but that guy is just a writer of a couple of history of philosophy books for the Reader's Digest crowd in the 30s and is utterly forgotten today.

He just happened to have written The Story of Civilization. I'm surprised you didn't know who he was. I thought you knew about every well-known philosopher!

Influential American historian and philosopher

Will Durant was an influential American historian and philosopher, best known for his eleven-volume work, "The Story of Civilization," which he co-authored with his wife, Ariel Durant. His approach to philosophy emphasized a total perspective, aiming to unify and humanize historical knowledge, making it accessible to the general public. Durant's significant contributions to philosophy and history earned him the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968 and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977. His works, such as "The Story of Philosophy," have sold millions of copies and continue to influence readers' understanding of history and philosophy today.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Story of Civilization

A set of all eleven volumes
Author
Will Durant
Ariel Durant
Language English
Subject History
Published 1935–1975
Publisher Simon & Schuster
Publication place United States
Pages 13,549
ISBN 978-1567310238

The Story of Civilization (1935–1975), by husband and wife Will and Ariel Durant, is an eleven-volume set of books covering both Eastern and Western civilizations for the general reader, with a particular emphasis on European (Western) history.

The series was written over a span of four decades.

The first six volumes of The Story of Civilization are credited to Will Durant alone, with Ariel recognized only in the acknowledgements. Beginning with The Age of Reason Begins, Ariel is credited as a co-author. In the preface to the first volume, Durant states his intention to make the series in five volumes, although this would not turn out to be the case.[1]

The series won a Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968 with the tenth volume in the series, Rousseau and Revolution.[2]

The volumes were best sellers and sold well for many years. Sets of them were frequently offered by book clubs. An unabridged audiobook production of all eleven volumes was produced by the Books on Tape company and was read by Alexander Adams (also known as Grover Gardner).[3]

Volumes
I. Our Oriental Heritage (1935)
This volume covers Near Eastern history until the fall of the Achaemenid Empire in the 330s BC, and the history of India, China, and Japan up to the 1930s.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 1 ~ Our Oriental Heritage ~ Being a History of Civilization in Egypt and the Near East to the Death of Alexander; and in India, China and Japan from the Beginning to Our Own Day; with an Introduction on the Nature and Foundations of Civilization.

II. The Life of Greece (1939)
This volume covers Ancient Greece and the Hellenistic Near East down to the Roman conquest.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 2 ~ The Life of Greece ~ A History of Greek Government, Industry, Manners, Morals, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Literature and Art from the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest.

III. Caesar and Christ (1944)
The volume covers the history of Rome and of Christianity until the time of Constantine the Great.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 3 ~ Caesar and Christ ~ This Brilliantly Written History Surveys All Aspects of Roman Life ~ Politics, Economics, Literature, Art, Morals. It Ends with the Conflict of Pagan and Christian Forces and Raises the Curtain on the Great Struggle between Church and State.

IV. The Age of Faith (1950)
This volume covers the Middle Ages in both Europe and the Near East, from the time of Constantine I to that of Dante Alighieri.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 4 ~ The Age of Faith ~ A History of Medieval Civilization ~ Christian, Islamic, and Judaic ~ from Constantine to Dante ~ A.D. 325 - 1300.

V. The Renaissance (1953)
This volume covers the history of Italy from c.1300 to the mid 16th century, focusing on the Italian Renaissance.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 5 ~ The Renaissance ~ A History of Civilization in Italy from the Birth of Petrarch to the Death of Titian ~ 1304 to 1576.

VI. The Reformation (1957)
This volume covers the history of Europe outside of Italy from around 1300 to 1564, focusing on the Protestant Reformation.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 6 ~ The Reformation ~ A History of European Civilization from Wyclif to Calvin ~ 1300 - 1564.

VII. The Age of Reason Begins (1961)
This volume covers the history of Europe and the Near East from 1559 to 1648.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 7 ~ The Age of Reason Begins ~ A History of European Civilization in the Period of Shakespeare, Bacon, Montaigne, Rembrandt, Galileo and Descartes ~ 1558 - 1648.

VIII. The Age of Louis XIV (1963)
This volume covers the period of Louis XIV of France in Europe and the Near East.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 8 ~ The Age of Louis XIV ~ A History of European Civilization in the Period of Pascal, Molière, Cromwell, Milton, Peter the Great, Newton and Spinoza: 1648-1715.

IX. The Age of Voltaire (1965)
This volume covers the period of the Age of Enlightenment, as exemplified by Voltaire, focusing on the period between 1715 and 1756 in France, Britain, and Germany.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 9 ~ The Age of Voltaire ~ A History of Civilization in Western Europe from 1715 to 1756, with Special Emphasis on the Conflict between Religion and Philosophy.

X. Rousseau and Revolution (1967)

Ariel and Will Durant with a copy of Rousseau and Revolution in 1967
This volume centers on Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his times. It received the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1968.[4]

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 10 ~ Rousseau and Revolution ~ A History of Civilization in France, England, and Germany from 1756, and in the Remainder of Europe from 1715 to 1789.

XI. The Age of Napoleon (1975)
This volume centers on Napoleon I of France and his times.

Full title: The Story of Civilization ~ 11 ~ The Age of Napoleon ~ A History of European Civilization from 1789 to 1815.

So yeah, I don't think your dad knew a lot about philosophy, and when I mentioned a very influential yet not actually important paper from the 1960s by Strawson at the start of this thread your response was to ask ChatGPT how to argue against Strawson. So no, I don't think you are any better.

I understand Strawson's take on free will and moral responsibility, but he doesn't have the answer.

So yes please. Rather than saying "the philosophers" all think that determinism means we are forced to act against our will, even though everyone here disagrees with that assessment, tell us which philosophers you are actually speaking against so that we can compare findings without bullshitting each other.

No, I'm not here to bullshit but I'm also not here to discuss other philosophers who don't have the answer FlashDangerpants. I know what the basic argument is about, and THEY DON'T HAVE IT!

There is no important argument associated with Will Durant. Everything you listed there is just Reader's Digest history of phil stuff. I got the decades wrong I suppose.

If you are telling us that we are wrong about how philosophers actually define and understand the free will debate, you should be in a position to tell us which philsosophers your are referring to. Stop bullshitting us.

Every philosopher that I know of is either a determinist, a libertarian, or a compatibilist. I don't have to point to any one philosopher to inform you that none of these well-meaning philosophers had/have the solution that Lessans brought to the table. There is the possibility that someone else could have made this discovery because the knowledge is here; it's not something he invented. But so far, I have not encountered anyone who has made this finding and shown how it can send our world onto a new trajectory of peace and brotherhood.

[peacegirl]

That doesn't imply that we are forced to do what we don't want to do.

It actually does. Look at it again:" The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. This is problematic for lots of people understandably. You need to understand why the tweaking of this inaccurate definition changes everything because it leads to the two-sided equation which reconciles these two opposing schools of thought and brings about the possibility of a world we all want. I haven't asked everyone in the world if they want peace, but I can make that assumption using induction.

That doesn't imply that we are forced to do what we don't want to do. It says that our wants and actions were determined in an arbitrarily distant past, say before humans even existed.

Okay I admit that "external" is too ambiguous here. If it can refer to the present, then according to this definition, physical laws aren't deterministic.

Physical laws are not deterministic in the sense that they aren't prescriptive. IOW, they don't prescribe in advance what one must necessarily choose before one makes a choice. They are descriptive, which doesn't contravene anything Lessans has written.

[FlashDangerpants]

Every philosopher that I know of is either a determinist, a libertarian, or a compatibilist. I don't have to point to any one philosopher to inform you that none of these well-meaning philosophers had/have the solution that Lessans brought to the table. There is the possibility that someone else could have made this discovery because the knowledge is here; it's not something he invented. But so far, I have not encountered anyone who has made this finding and shown how it can send our world onto a new trajectory of peace and brotherhood.

You are ignoring the actual question yet again. Which of these philsophers can you quote telling us that determinism makes us do stuff against our will?

I really don't need telling that none of them came up with the same thing your dad did.

[Atla]

It actually does. Look at it again:" The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. This is problematic for lots of people understandably. You need to understand why the tweaking of this inaccurate definition changes everything because it leads to the two-sided equation which reconciles these two opposing schools of thought and brings about the possibility of a world we all want. I haven't asked everyone in the world if they want peace, but I can make that assumption using induction.

That doesn't imply that we are forced to do what we don't want to do. It says that our wants and actions were determined in an arbitrarily distant past, say before humans even existed.

Okay I admit that "external" is too ambiguous here. If it can refer to the present, then according to this definition, physical laws aren't deterministic.

Physical laws are not deterministic in the sense that they aren't prescriptive. IOW, they don't prescribe in advance what one must necessarily choose before one makes a choice. They are descriptive, which doesn't contravene anything Lessans has written.

I don't know what you mean here. What is prescriptive? What is descriptive?

[peacegirl]

Every philosopher that I know of is either a determinist, a libertarian, or a compatibilist. I don't have to point to any one philosopher to inform you that none of these well-meaning philosophers had/have the solution that Lessans brought to the table. There is the possibility that someone else could have made this discovery because the knowledge is here; it's not something he invented. But so far, I have not encountered anyone who has made this finding and shown how it can send our world onto a new trajectory of peace and brotherhood.

You are ignoring the actual question yet again. Which of these philsophers can you quote telling us that determinism makes us do stuff against our will?

I really don't need telling that none of them came up with the same thing your dad did.

I've listened to people discussing the definition of determinism to mean forcing or causing to do something "against one's will." Don't pin me down because it wasn't attributed to any one philosopher. It was a definition used in conversation.

[peacegirl]

That doesn't imply that we are forced to do what we don't want to do. It says that our wants and actions were determined in an arbitrarily distant past, say before humans even existed.

Okay I admit that "external" is too ambiguous here. If it can refer to the present, then according to this definition, physical laws aren't deterministic.

Physical laws are not deterministic in the sense that they aren't prescriptive. IOW, they don't prescribe in advance what one must necessarily choose before one makes a choice. They are descriptive, which doesn't contravene anything Lessans has written.

I don't know what you mean here. What is prescriptive? What is descriptive?

A prescriptive law means to prescribe what someone must do necessarily, without anyone's consent. A descriptive law means it describes after the fact but does not interfere by stating what a person must do. This is unlike a prescription that states something must be done a certain way in advance of it actually being done.

[FlashDangerpants]

Every philosopher that I know of is either a determinist, a libertarian, or a compatibilist. I don't have to point to any one philosopher to inform you that none of these well-meaning philosophers had/have the solution that Lessans brought to the table. There is the possibility that someone else could have made this discovery because the knowledge is here; it's not something he invented. But so far, I have not encountered anyone who has made this finding and shown how it can send our world onto a new trajectory of peace and brotherhood.

You are ignoring the actual question yet again. Which of these philsophers can you quote telling us that determinism makes us do stuff against our will?

I really don't need telling that none of them came up with the same thing your dad did.

I've listened to people discussing the definition of determinism to mean forcing or causing to do something "against one's will." Don't pin me down because it wasn't attributed to any one philosopher. It was a definition used in conversation.

So you haven't read these philosophers or anything like that. But you've had some sort of conversation that doesn't name names about them?

You have been trying to overrule Atla and I and Belinda anyone else really when we tell you that philosophers don't actuallly argue that determinism results in people being forced to do things against their will. You are bullshitting us.

You are on the spot, you made this up, or your dad made it up and you never bothered to find out.

[FlashDangerpants]

That doesn't imply that we are forced to do what we don't want to do. It says that our wants and actions were determined in an arbitrarily distant past, say before humans even existed.

Okay I admit that "external" is too ambiguous here. If it can refer to the present, then according to this definition, physical laws aren't deterministic.

Physical laws are not deterministic in the sense that they aren't prescriptive. IOW, they don't prescribe in advance what one must necessarily choose before one makes a choice. They are descriptive, which doesn't contravene anything Lessans has written.

I don't know what you mean here. What is prescriptive? What is descriptive?

It's sort of what seperates a law of nature (descriptive of the natural world) from a law of man (prescriptive about the legal world). It's also perfectly irrelevant to the question.

Either the laws of nature, if thoroughly understood to an impossible degree, allow perfect prediction of an event (in principle) or they don't. Being prescriptive or descriptive is irrelevant to the predictive capability. Deterministic vs probablistic might be a usable distinction, but the one pg chose probably isn't.

[Belinda]

Are you trying to communicate with peacegirl or just randomly spamming irrelevant nonsense at me?

Just joining in the discussion.There is nothing to take offence at.

I'm not offended, I am just wondering if you hit reply on the wrong post or something? Most of that stuff is of no interest to me and doesn't refer to anything I have written, but your posts tend to have that flavour.

I see. I usually click 'Reply' as I thought that was what I was supposed to do when I wanted to add to the discussion in a general way. I am obviously doing something technically wrong.

I still maintain that, because the word 'will' exists as a noun and people talk about their 'will' as if it were an entity, there seems to be such an entity. However there is no such anatomical or physiological entity . 'To will' is really a verb and it becomes nonsense talk when ' will' is used as a noun.

[FlashDangerpants]

Just joining in the discussion.There is nothing to take offence at.

I'm not offended, I am just wondering if you hit reply on the wrong post or something? Most of that stuff is of no interest to me and doesn't refer to anything I have written, but your posts tend to have that flavour.

I see. I usually click 'Reply' as I thought that was what I was supposed to do when I wanted to add to the discussion in a general way. I am obviously doing something technically wrong.

You quoted me in your reply, but then wrote stuff that didn't seem to bear any relation to what I wrote. So I asked what your intention was as it seemed you were replying to peacegirl but accidentally quoting me.

You spout random nonsense more often than not though, so perhaps it wasn't a mistake. I can't really tell with you.

[Belinda]

Every philosopher that I know of is either a determinist, a libertarian, or a compatibilist. I don't have to point to any one philosopher to inform you that none of these well-meaning philosophers had/have the solution that Lessans brought to the table. There is the possibility that someone else could have made this discovery because the knowledge is here; it's not something he invented. But so far, I have not encountered anyone who has made this finding and shown how it can send our world onto a new trajectory of peace and brotherhood.

You are ignoring the actual question yet again. Which of these philsophers can you quote telling us that determinism makes us do stuff against our will?

I really don't need telling that none of them came up with the same thing your dad did.

I've listened to people discussing the definition of determinism to mean forcing or causing to do something "against one's will." Don't pin me down because it wasn't attributed to any one philosopher. It was a definition used in conversation.

Peacegirl, you reify will. Will is a process not a thing.