What is obscene ?

[MikeNovack]

It's hardly a 'conspiracy theory'. I don't know what rock you've been living under. I can't be bothered digging it up. Paedophilia is a very big part of the current so-called 'trans'/gender ideology movement.

Might seem to be a silly question, but do you personally know many "trans" people? I do understand how likely depends on where you live (I happen to live in Western MA where relatively safe for trans people to be "out" so more visible)

Also, since you appear to think ALL of it is "ideology", do you know about the various forms of AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)? All types will need psychological help. Some types also medical intervention. For some including a gender decision. << these genetic males would all have been assigned "female" at birth >>

For me the puzzle is WHY you would even believe some link between trans/gender folks and paedophilia fo... no, I can't even think of them as folks. I understand, you have presumably seen material saying linked, but doesn't your reason cause you to doubt it.

[accelafine]

It's hardly a 'conspiracy theory'. I don't know what rock you've been living under. I can't be bothered digging it up. Paedophilia is a very big part of the current so-called 'trans'/gender ideology movement.

Might seem to be a silly question, but do you personally know many "trans" people? I do understand how likely depends on where you live (I happen to live in Western MA where relatively safe for trans people to be "out" so more visible)

Also, since you appear to think ALL of it is "ideology", do you know about the various forms of AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)? All types will need psychological help. Some types also medical intervention. For some including a gender decision. << these genetic males would all have been assigned "female" at birth >>

For me the puzzle is WHY you would even believe some link between trans/gender folks and paedophilia fo... no, I can't even think of them as folks. I understand, you have presumably seen material saying linked, but doesn't your reason cause you to doubt it.

Do you mean do I personally know any men who get a sexual kick out of dressing up as women?

[popeye1945]

Ask yourself what is obscene to an individual in isolation. Morality to an individual in isolation is meaningless. Obscenity, like morality itself, is a social construct. Human society lives by standards.

What does it mean for something to be a "social construct"? And is the term "social construct" a "social construct"? Sounds to me a bit like it might be more relativism.

All things that are not the physical world itself, I mean, earth, its geography. human-created structures, systems, beliefs, and philosophies are biological extensions of humanity, expressions of human nature. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, including their subjective reality. Relativism means varied, and is due to early geographical isolation and lack of immediate communications. Morality does not occur outside groups of organisms, packs, societies, large or small, and even in the family context. Created in the context of a society, it is a social construct.







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[popeye1945]

Ask yourself what is obscene to an individual in isolation. Morality to an individual in isolation is meaningless. Obscenity, like morality itself, is a social construct. Human society lives by standards.

Humans are not the sort of animal that lives in isolation. We are not like Orangutans but like chimpanzees and bonobos. We have been social animals from before our three lines diverged. However, we need to consider the difference between learning/having been taught our culture and FEELINGS caused by breaking these.

And no, not "mansplaing" a PARTICULAR detail of culture but giving examples to show how some cultural features MUCH more stable than others. Random that I chose "fashion" except not totally unrelated (since determines if "dressed" or "naked")

But more seriously:
"part of an ideology that also includes the normalisation of sex with children. They've even come up with a new name for men who want to rape children, one that deliberately tries to minimise and 'normalise' it. Woke academics give lectures and write papers pontificating about how these men should be treated with compassion instead of being demonised. There are a few prominent ones who get plenty of airtime on mainstream media"

Male bovine excrement. No such "ideology" exists except in the heads of conspiracy theorists. The are no serious proponents of "normalizing" such behavior. If you mean there are those who favor treating as SICK (mentally ill) rather than criminal, I agree there are. Especially among mental health professionals. But that is part of a different argument about how societies should deal with deviant individuals IN GENERAL.

Some individuals live in isolation; this is an analogy to illustrate that morality is a product of society, and not all societies share the same moral standards.

[MikeNovack]

Some individuals live in isolation; this is an analogy to illustrate that morality is a product of society, and not all societies share the same moral standards.

Now I strongly suspect we are using "living in isolation" to mean very different things. I suspect individuals you would describe is living in isolation I would describe as getting much/most of their basic life support from the surrounding culture/civilization.

It takes an enormous "skill set" for an individual to be able to survive even a few months living in isolation. When he was younger, our eldest son did it for a few months BUT in unexploited ecosystem during a favorable time of year. And he was going in armed with technology he lacked the skills to replace. In other words, he could identify all the edible plants, but could not replace his fish hooks, line, snare wire, etc.

[ThinkOfOne]

It used to be considered obscene for men to display their revolting sex fetishes in public and they would be arrested for it. Now they are lauded as 'stunning and brave'. Humans are just weird. What's up with that??

You aren't talking about "humans" but a specific culture. Nor should you be surprised that human cultures change/evolve over time. For some aspects of culture a "cultural generation" is a human generation (about 20 years). But for afew aspects much shorter. "proper attire" in our culture changes relatively quickly. Think of how we dressed at ten generation (200 year) intervals into the past. On the other hand, some aspects of culture change only very slowly. Take "children's games". Here the generation of transmission about 3 years (children learn "the right way to plat" from children about three years older --in just about all cultures). VERY CONSERVATIVE transmission. It's been ~600 "generations"since Vesuvius took out Pompeii but you can recognize "hopscotch"layouts. << NOTE: I might argue, in all societies we are taught "obey the rules of your society" by having been taught children's games.

OK --- MY candidates for a list of what is obscene (in ALL human societies -- I AM talkig about "for humans)

1) Sex with pre-pubescent/pubescent children (cultures MAY extend to older ages
2) Incest (exact relationships forbidden will be culturally dependent, but a few of the closest biological will be common to all methods)
3) Improper attire (culturally defined, and may have complicated rules/exceptions for time and place)

Please feel free to contest any of these or suggest additions to the list

OK --- MY candidates for a list of what is obscene (in ALL human societies -- I AM talkig about "for humans)

1) Sex with pre-pubescent/pubescent children (cultures MAY extend to older ages
2) Incest (exact relationships forbidden will be culturally dependent, but a few of the closest biological will be common to all methods)
3) Improper attire (culturally defined, and may have complicated rules/exceptions for time and place)

Why "improper attire"? Especially given that you acknowledge that ' "proper attire" in our culture changes relatively quickly.'

Wasn't that long ago that women wearing pants was irrationally viewed by many as a "perversion": "Does she think that she's a man".

Ultimately the "perversion" is in those who are obsessed with imposing their irrationally simplistic binary view of "gender" upon society. Reality is so much more complex than that.

[MikeNovack]

Do you mean do I personally know any men who get a sexual kick out of dressing up as women?

No, that's maybe hoe "trans"would be thought of 80 years ago (transvestite)

Nowadays "trans" refers to trans gender identification.They may indeed dress appropriately for the gender,but not for sexual kicks.

LOL, you ask what rock I crawled out from under.

[accelafine]

Do you mean do I personally know any men who get a sexual kick out of dressing up as women?

No, that's maybe hoe "trans"would be thought of 80 years ago (transvestite)

Nowadays "trans" refers to trans gender identification.They may indeed dress appropriately for the gender,but not for sexual kicks.

LOL, you ask what rock I crawled out from under.

And they are still transvestites (or, more accurately, men). 'Gender Identity' is made-up bollocks that is causing a huge amount of harm to women and children. 'Gender' was a word used by Americans who were too coy to use the word 'sex' (hence American 'gender' reveal parties) and the confusion has been snowballing ever since (humans are very easy to confuse). There is nothing 'confusing' about male and female gametes.

And yeah, i may know men who have a fetish for dressing up as women, because most men who do it do it in private when their wives or partners aren't around (and post it all over the internet). They are just bog standard blokes the rest of the time. It's only recently that it has turned into the most batshit insane 'ideology' that humans have managed to come up with yet.
No one has ever answered the question: 'What rights do men in dresses and lipstick not have that they have when they wear their bloke clothes?' They don't answer because the answer is: 'The right to insert themselves into women's sports, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, rape crisis centres...anywhere that women have exclusively for themselves as women. That's what women are objecting to.
'Woman' is not an idea (identity) in men's heads. Biological facts are not an opinion or a 'feeling'. How the fuck would any man know what it 'feels like' to be a woman? It doesn't 'feel' like anything. It just 'is'. Have you seen the way they behave at their 'protests'? Interesting that their 'womanness' never takes away their extreme male aggression and misogyny. They are more than happy to flaunt their vastly superior male strength when it suits them.
The whole 'trans' movement is a load of meaningless bollocks anyway. Misogynistic bollocks that preys on chlldren and which gets more confused and 'inclusive' --i.e. 'includes' more and more fetishes and perversions and is only limited by the human imagination for such things-- by the day.

Apparently white, middle-aged+ men in frocks are the 'most vulnerable, oppressed minority group in society today'

[MikeNovack]

LOL, you ask what rock I crawled out from under.

What on earth makes you imagine that "trans" folks are all males gendering as female? You haven't met females gendering as male?

You haven't become aware that sexuality is not necessarily closely connected to gender identification?

You're the one who has bought ideology hook,line, and sinker. THINK. "'What rights do men in dresses and lipstick not have that they have when they wear their bloke clothes?' They don't answer because the answer is: 'The right to insert themselves into women's sports, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, rape crisis centres." Just for THAT? You think it is as easy as that? Put on a dress and lipstick and presto? It's hour after hour of painful practice to walk like a woman in pumps with 3" heels (my wife, though short, NEVER wears those damned instruments of torture).

OK -- let's start over. It is NOT a "lifestyle choice". Nobody is deciding "I'm going to try being gay" or "I'm in the wrong body". Almost always, they go through a very difficult time of discovery that "something is wrong with me". Drop your assumptions. Not all lesbians are "butch" and not all male homosexuals are "swish". Realizing the latter could save you from a nasty experience if you accidentally walked into a "leather boys" bar.

What's the use? I'm not going to be able to make you look, to think. Not even to get you to look back over your own life experience and imagine. Say you were back in school days and some boy gender transitioned. As you think "so he could excel in girls' sports". What kind of hell would you and your class mates been putting him through?

[accelafine]

LOL, you ask what rock I crawled out from under.

What on earth makes you imagine that "trans" folks are all males gendering as female? You haven't met females gendering as male?

You haven't become aware that sexuality is not necessarily closely connected to gender identification?

You're the one who has bought ideology hook,line, and sinker. THINK. "'What rights do men in dresses and lipstick not have that they have when they wear their bloke clothes?' They don't answer because the answer is: 'The right to insert themselves into women's sports, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, rape crisis centres." Just for THAT? You think it is as easy as that? Put on a dress and lipstick and presto? It's hour after hour of painful practice to walk like a woman in pumps with 3" heels (my wife, though short, NEVER wears those damned instruments of torture).

OK -- let's start over. It is NOT a "lifestyle choice". Nobody is deciding "I'm going to try being gay" or "I'm in the wrong body". Almost always, they go through a very difficult time of discovery that "something is wrong with me". Drop your assumptions. Not all lesbians are "butch" and not all male homosexuals are "swish". Realizing the latter could save you from a nasty experience if you accidentally walked into a "leather boys" bar.

What's the use? I'm not going to be able to make you look, to think. Not even to get you to look back over your own life experience and imagine. Say you were back in school days and some boy gender transitioned. As you think "so he could excel in girls' sports". What kind of hell would you and your class mates been putting him through?

It's the AGP's who are causing the problems that women are protesting about. Then there are the children who might not conform to sex stereotypes and are being told by their wanker transhausen parents and other alleged adults that they are in the 'wrong body'. A boy who likes to play with dolls is NOT a girl, he's a boy who likes to play with dolls. A girl who likes to play with trucks and climb trees is a girl who likes to play with truck and climb trees. Some of them might grow up to be gay, some not. Many of them are being robbed of the chance to ever know.
I don't actually give a shit what you think because it doesn't adversely affect you anyway. It's a women's rights movement--like the right to vote was.
Your 'arguments' make no sense. Where did I say that all gay men are 'swish'?
The movement is deeply 'gay hating'. They call it 'transing away the gay'.

Your 'walking in heels' comment is beyond ridiculous. Most women don't wear them either. When men wear them it's because they have a fetish, so you are just making my argument for me.

I've written a lot about this on here. You can search back if you like. It's tedious having to go through the same arguments over and over again and listen to the same bullshit from men who don't have a clue what's going on. Why would you? Don't comment about it since it's clear you don't have a clue. There are middle-aged men playing sports with and against young girls and using the changing rooms. What the hell is wrong with you?
No one 'transitions'. Humans can't change sex you idiot.

[accelafine]

I don't know what tf you've done with the quote button but I'm not going to spend any more time trying to sort it out.

[AlonsoAcevesMX]

Sartre was right to say the obscene is what shows itself when we would rather look away. But I think it goes further: the obscene is not only what appears against our will, it is what strips away the veil we use to protect ourselves from reality. it unsettles because it reminds us that the world does not wait for our consent to be seen. In that sense, the obscene is less about indecency than about exposure — the rawness of being that refuses to stay hidden.

[popeye1945]

Sartre was right to say the obscene is what shows itself when we would rather look away. But I think it goes further: the obscene is not only what appears against our will, it is what strips away the veil we use to protect ourselves from reality. it unsettles because it reminds us that the world does not wait for our consent to be seen. In that sense, the obscene is less about indecency than about exposure — the rawness of being that refuses to stay hidden.

EXCELLENT! THAT'S A WOW!

The debate will go on, ignoring the perfect answer.