Consciousness of plants

[Bernard]

These are serious inquiries. There is no need to exaggerate because you have a bias that is challenged by what is presented. If a tree is conscious that does not necessitate that we talk with it as if it were a human being. This probable consciousness is rudimentary as far as we are concerned, as is the consciousness of insects.

Why does Clint look so dangerous even when he's singing a love song. Lately I've been imagining Chaz Wyman wears a cowboy hat - must be the name.

[Cerveny]

I talk to the trees
But they don't listen to me
I talk to the stars
But they never hear me
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh2UzWgSw3Q

Trees talk to me
But I do not listen to them
Trees talk to the stars
And they patiently wait for them
...

[chaz wyman]

I talk to the trees
But they don't listen to me
I talk to the stars
But they never hear me
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh2UzWgSw3Q

Trees talk to me
But I do not listen to them
Trees talk to the stars
And they patiently wait for them
...

[chaz wyman]

These are serious inquiries. There is no need to exaggerate because you have a bias that is challenged by what is presented. If a tree is conscious that does not necessitate that we talk with it as if it were a human being. This probable consciousness is rudimentary as far as we are concerned, as is the consciousness of insects.

Why does Clint look so dangerous even when he's singing a love song. Lately I've been imagining Chaz Wyman wears a cowboy hat - must be the name.

If we claim a tree is conscious then we have to have: a reason; be able to demonstrate; or have some kind of evidence, to make that claim.
No one, I mean no one, is "seriously" making that claim.

And about me wearing a cowboy hat - keep your wild fantasies to yourself!

[Bernard]

If we claim a tree is conscious then we have to have: a reason; be able to demonstrate; or have some kind of evidence, to make that claim.
No one, I mean no one, is "seriously" making that claim.

I've provided that evidence in so
many words already. A plant is a living thing. Living things are conscious. What don't you get with that?

And about me wearing a cowboy hat - keep your wild fantasies to yourself!

It wasn't a fantasy but a poke at you. You get around here like a cowboy shootin' any injuns jus' 'cause they're injuns, 'cause injuns are dumb.

[John]

Living things are conscious. What don't you get with that?

Is a person in a persistently vegetative state conscious? Am I conscious when I'm asleep? Why do we have the word "unconscious"?

You've just defined consciousness as a property of all living things therefore it applies to everything from people to viruses and single cell amoeba thus rendering it useless in any descriptive sense.

[chaz wyman]

If we claim a tree is conscious then we have to have: a reason; be able to demonstrate; or have some kind of evidence, to make that claim.
No one, I mean no one, is "seriously" making that claim.

I've provided that evidence in so
many words already. A plant is a living thing. Living things are conscious. What don't you get with that?

What we don't get about that is that it is false.
Consciousness is a property of life. Not a property of all life.

You might as well say humans have brains. Humans are living things. So all living things have brains: plants have brains.

And about me wearing a cowboy hat - keep your wild fantasies to yourself!

It wasn't a fantasy but a poke at you. You get around here like a cowboy shootin' any injuns jus' 'cause they're injuns, 'cause injuns are dumb.

You seem to be in a fantasy world of your own making - keep me out of it - I have no idea what drugs you are on.

[HexHammer]

Living things are conscious. What don't you get with that?

Is a person in a persistently vegetative state conscious? Am I conscious when I'm asleep? Why do we have the word "unconscious"?

You've just defined consciousness as a property of all living things therefore it applies to everything from people to viruses and single cell amoeba thus rendering it useless in any descriptive sense.

Yes, you are concious when you are asleep, when I was in the military I would awake from even the deepest sleep if a "wrong" sound was heard, but here in my civilians days I can sleep through anything.
Also many sleep tests show that people who falls asleep in noisy enviroment, will awake when the noise suddenly stops, which is a prehistoric instinct.

And yes, late science shows that people in some vegetative states ARE indeed concious.

We have the concept of unconcious, because it's a lack of reflexes to stimuli.

[John]

Living things are conscious. What don't you get with that?

Is a person in a persistently vegetative state conscious? Am I conscious when I'm asleep? Why do we have the word "unconscious"?

You've just defined consciousness as a property of all living things therefore it applies to everything from people to viruses and single cell amoeba thus rendering it useless in any descriptive sense.

Yes, you are concious when you are asleep, when I was in the military I would awake from even the deepest sleep if a "wrong" sound was heard, but here in my civilians days I can sleep through anything.

You may be right, but are you actually reasoning and reflecting or is it a subconscious reaction and is being able to react subconsciously different to being conscious? I'm no expert and I'm not entirely convinced but I won't argue the point as it's not difficult to see that high functioning brain activity often takes place while sleeping and I'll defer to your experience.

Also many sleep tests show that people who falls asleep in noisy environment, will awake when the noise suddenly stops, which is a prehistoric instinct.

Or it may just be a reaction to a stimuli change.

And yes, late science shows that people in some vegetative states ARE indeed concious.

I certainly wouldn't disagree but the inclusion of the word "some" doesn't help Bernard argument as he's asserted that all living things and conscious and not just "some".

We have the concept of unconscious, because it's a lack of reflexes to stimuli.

I think there's plenty of evidence of people being alive but lacking reflexive responses to stimuli and also exhibiting no mental functioning and in these cases they cannot be described as conscious in any meaningful way.

Anyway, does this mean that consciousness is merely reflexes to stimuli?

[HexHammer]

@ John
My good John, I have insufficient knowledge and can't say anything that is stricly scientific, but to my knowledge we are concious for the most part of our diffent states we can be in, insects without a brain, whom will have most of their actions steerd by their subconcousness/CNS will indeed be concious, just look at beheaded cockroaches as they can live for weeks, and only dies of starvation and thirst.

[Bernard]

If someone is in a coma they are in a vegetative sort of state, which is not functional for any sort of normal human conscious behaviour. It is effectively unconscious; but you will find much difference of opinion on whether they are without consciousness altogether. You could bet your bottom dollar that a survey of opinion would reveal that people would not on the whole believe that a person in a coma is utterly devoid of consciousness.

You've just defined consciousness as a property of all living things therefore it applies to everything from people to viruses and single cell amoeba thus rendering it useless in any descriptive sense.

Wiki. Unconscious might refer to:
In physiology:
unconsciousness, the lack of consciousness or responsiveness to people and other environmental stimuli

[HexHammer]

If someone is in a coma they are in a vegetative sort of state, which is not functional for any sort of normal human conscious behaviour. It is effectively unconscious; but you will find much difference of opinion on whether they are without consciousness altogether. You could bet your bottom dollar that a survey of opinion would reveal that people would not on the whole believe that a person in a coma is utterly devoid of consciousness.

Wrong, it was proven about 2 years ago, that a vegetative patient was indeed concious for about 5 years, he could perfectly think, but not communicate witht others, it's an old supersticious belief you are quoting.

[chaz wyman]

If someone is in a coma they are in a vegetative sort of state, which is not functional for any sort of normal human conscious behaviour. It is effectively unconscious; but you will find much difference of opinion on whether they are without consciousness altogether. You could bet your bottom dollar that a survey of opinion would reveal that people would not on the whole believe that a person in a coma is utterly devoid of consciousness.

Wrong, it was proven about 2 years ago, that a vegetative patient was indeed concious for about 5 years, he could perfectly think, but not communicate witht others, it's an old supersticious belief you are quoting.

I think you are misreading him.
First, it nothing to do with superstition. The idea that people in coma's lacked consciousness is medically based, and for many people it is actually true. It has not been until very recently that science has been able to detect brain-waves that show who is and who is not conscious.
But, the fist thing Bernard was talking about is the idea of being unconscious - which can apply to many people, even after a slight fall, or even in some periods of dreamless sleep.
Unconscious is not necessarily the same as, never to be conscious again, which seems to be the case with some comatose states.

[John]

If someone is in a coma they are in a vegetative sort of state, which is not functional for any sort of normal human conscious behaviour. It is effectively unconscious; but you will find much difference of opinion on whether they are without consciousness altogether. You could bet your bottom dollar that a survey of opinion would reveal that people would not on the whole believe that a person in a coma is utterly devoid of consciousness.

Who are you including in this survey?

Anyway, do you accept that by your definition a single cell organism is conscious?

[Bernard]

I would think a single cell organism is conscious, but not in the way we know consciousness to be. For us consciousness is a mental thing. Our sense of self is glued to our reflective nature; being that we take minimial perceptual input from our environment and rebuild it mentally. Other animals don't do that, let alone amoeba.

Consciousness is a result of being aware, even in extremely rudimentary ways. Awareness gives rise to perception and perception promotes consciousness. Nothing can act as an independent unit without consciousness. You can't tell me that the creatures in this video aren't acting as self contained entities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGAm6hMysTA