Scrapping the monarchy

[Belinda]

As an American what does the British monarchy have to do with you? Europe (NOT the US) has been flooded with the worst that islam has to offer, thanks to your own country's devastating effect on the planet with its ongoing love affair with the arms industry and planet-bullying.

As somebody from the US, the British monarchy has nothing to do with me (Canadians might object if I used American).

But I somehow recall that Europe has had an "immigration" problem for quite a while. Some of my ancestors forced their way into Europe in the 9th Century and took over what's now Hungary. Other earlier waves took down Rome, which had a scare hundreds of years before that when Brennus brought Celts through. But of course the Romans themselves claimed to be refugees from Troy. Guess that proved too much for the Etruscans. Maybe the Basques and the Sami not immigrants, but pretty much all the rest of you are.

So apparently the US not the general cause. We humans have pretty much always been doing this.

For those of you who want to bring in religion, what ends up in English as "stranger in the land" means "refugee" (they had those back then too)

There is no exact number for how many American Jews identify as Zionists, because definitions of "Zionist" vary, and surveys measure support for Israel in different ways. However, here's what can be said based on major studies:

1. Strong emotional connection to Israel is common
According to a 2020 Pew Research Center study:

82% of U.S. Jews said caring about Israel is essential or important to their Jewish identity.

45% said they feel very emotionally attached to Israel, while another 29% feel somewhat attached.
ChatGPT

There has been and still is a strong Jewish lobby in the USA.
MikeNovack is right about coloniailsm and imperialism as ubiquitous in man's past. The time has come when humans reject colonialism and imperialism. (tragedies of Gaza and Ukraine) USA cannot do so as USA is completely dependent on capitalism and capitalism's complexes that include social class. However USA has no need for kings and queens as USA 's class system is well entrenched without any recourse to a feudal museum piece.

[accelafine]

As an American what does the British monarchy have to do with you? Europe (NOT the US) has been flooded with the worst that islam has to offer, thanks to your own country's devastating effect on the planet with its ongoing love affair with the arms industry and planet-bullying.

As somebody from the US, the British monarchy has nothing to do with me (Canadians might object if I used American).

But I somehow recall that Europe has had an "immigration" problem for quite a while. Some of my ancestors forced their way into Europe in the 9th Century and took over what's now Hungary. Other earlier waves took down Rome, which had a scare hundreds of years before that when Brennus brought Celts through. But of course the Romans themselves claimed to be refugees from Troy. Guess that proved too much for the Etruscans. Maybe the Basques and the Sami not immigrants, but pretty much all the rest of you are.

So apparently the US not the general cause. We humans have pretty much always been doing this.

For those of you who want to bring in religion, what ends up in English as "stranger in the land" means "refugee" (they had those back then too)

There is no exact number for how many American Jews identify as Zionists, because definitions of "Zionist" vary, and surveys measure support for Israel in different ways. However, here's what can be said based on major studies:

1. Strong emotional connection to Israel is common
According to a 2020 Pew Research Center study:

82% of U.S. Jews said caring about Israel is essential or important to their Jewish identity.

45% said they feel very emotionally attached to Israel, while another 29% feel somewhat attached.
ChatGPT

There has been and still is a strong Jewish lobby in the USA.
MikeNovack is right about coloniailsm and imperialism as ubiquitous in man's past. The time has come when humans reject colonialism and imperialism. (tragedies of Gaza and Ukraine) USA cannot do so as USA is completely dependent on capitalism and capitalism's complexes that include social class. However USA has no need for kings and queens as USA 's class system is well entrenched without any recourse to a feudal museum piece.

If you are going to talk about 'Zionists' then you at least need to define what exactly you mean when you use the word. I don't give a rat's arse what AI says about it. It changes what it says depending on who's asking. The definition of 'Zionist' is NOT vague, except to those with an agenda to make it so. It has a very specific meaning.

Is a 'Zionist' anyone who acknowledges that Israel is a country and as such has as much 'right' to exist as any other country? It's a word that shouldn't even be used any more except in a historical context. It's obsolete. Is there a special word for people who believe that the US has a 'right to exist'?
Why is Israel the only country that has a special word for anyone who accepts its existence? It's absurd. The ZIONISTS were a group of people in the late 19th and early twentieth century whose goal was to create a Jewish homeland. In case you hadn't noticed they achieved that goal (which incidentally took decades of LEGAL land purchases and LEGAL immigration). Using the word now is absurd and simply a way for people to say 'I hate Jews' and get away with it. It's not woke yet to say it outright, so they replace 'Jews' with 'Zionists' to ensure that they stay 'on trend'.

[mickthinks]

There is no exact number for how many American Jews identify as Zionists, because definitions of "Zionist" vary, …

If you are going to talk about 'Zionists' then you at least need to define what exactly you mean when you use the word.

lol veggie demonstrates her superhuman powers of incomprehension.

btw, countries don’t have a right to exist.

[accelafine]

There is no exact number for how many American Jews identify as Zionists, because definitions of "Zionist" vary, …

If you are going to talk about 'Zionists' then you at least need to define what exactly you mean when you use the word.

lol veggie demonstrates her superhuman powers of incomprehension.

btw, countries don’t have a right to exist.

Something I've said many times, wanker. In fact you probably stole that off me since I'm the only one who's ever said it on here. Plus, what the fuck do you think the inverted commas are for? Dumb illiterate yank. Stop farting or change your diet for pity's sake.

Very clever and mature cherry picking btw. Always a brilliant substitute for a counterargument. Is one sentence all you have the attention span to read? Alzheimer's is a bitch like that.

[MikeNovack]

I though this topic was about scrapping or keeping a monarchy.

Then what's this about Israel and Zionism? In that immediate part of the world, might discuss Israel's neighbor Jordan, which at least is a monarchy. What IS this, a bunch of Cato the Elders? (who always added "Carthage ought to be destroyed" to any speech, any topic).

The argument "No country has a right to exist:; "Israel is a country": therefore "Israel has no right to exist" is valid logic. But if I see several people using this argument and at the same time see no cases of people using it to utter "India has no right to exist", New Zealand has no right to exist, Brazil has no right to exist, etc. etc. Well there are more than 100 countries, so a strong probability they are lying (and have a different reason for "Israel has no right to exist").

[accelafine]

I though this topic was about scrapping or keeping a monarchy.

Then what's this about Israel and Zionism? In that immediate part of the world, might discuss Israel's neighbor Jordan, which at least is a monarchy. What IS this, a bunch of Cato the Elders? (who always added "Carthage ought to be destroyed" to any speech, any topic).

The argument "No country has a right to exist:; "Israel is a country": therefore "Israel has no right to exist" is valid logic. But if I see several people using this argument and at the same time see no cases of people using it to utter "India has no right to exist", New Zealand has no right to exist, Brazil has no right to exist, etc. etc. Well there are more than 100 countries, so a strong probability they are lying (and have a different reason for "Israel has no right to exist").

True. The full context of what I've always said is that 'no country has a right to exist and no country has no right to exist'. Countries just exist. There is no one to bestow a 'right' to exist. Israel is the ONLY country that it has ever been said has 'no right to exist'. I wonder why that would be...

I don't know why this thread got onto the topic of 'Zionism' either. Threads have a habit of changing topic. My AI thread has mysteriously changed to be about some religious bs.

[Belinda]

I though this topic was about scrapping or keeping a monarchy.

Then what's this about Israel and Zionism? In that immediate part of the world, might discuss Israel's neighbor Jordan, which at least is a monarchy. What IS this, a bunch of Cato the Elders? (who always added "Carthage ought to be destroyed" to any speech, any topic).

The argument "No country has a right to exist:; "Israel is a country": therefore "Israel has no right to exist" is valid logic. But if I see several people using this argument and at the same time see no cases of people using it to utter "India has no right to exist", New Zealand has no right to exist, Brazil has no right to exist, etc. etc. Well there are more than 100 countries, so a strong probability they are lying (and have a different reason for "Israel has no right to exist").

MikeNovack

You yourself introduced the topic of colonialism and imperialism (so dear to kings ands queens). IsraelI Xionism is at present imperialistic and seeks to claim a large colony in the West Bank and Gaza.
accelafine wrote: ↑Sun Aug 03, 2025 9:24 pm
As an American what does the British monarchy have to do with you? Europe (NOT the US) has been flooded with the worst that islam has to offer, thanks to your own country's devastating effect on the planet with its ongoing love affair with the arms industry and planet-bullying.
As somebody from the US, the British monarchy has nothing to do with me (Canadians might object if I used American).

But I somehow recall that Europe has had an "immigration" problem for quite a while. Some of my ancestors forced their way into Europe in the 9th Century and took over what's now Hungary. Other earlier waves took down Rome, which had a scare hundreds of years before that when Brennus brought Celts through. But of course the Romans themselves claimed to be refugees from Troy. Guess that proved too much for the Etruscans. Maybe the Basques and the Sami not immigrants, but pretty

[accelafine]

I though this topic was about scrapping or keeping a monarchy.

Then what's this about Israel and Zionism? In that immediate part of the world, might discuss Israel's neighbor Jordan, which at least is a monarchy. What IS this, a bunch of Cato the Elders? (who always added "Carthage ought to be destroyed" to any speech, any topic).

The argument "No country has a right to exist:; "Israel is a country": therefore "Israel has no right to exist" is valid logic. But if I see several people using this argument and at the same time see no cases of people using it to utter "India has no right to exist", New Zealand has no right to exist, Brazil has no right to exist, etc. etc. Well there are more than 100 countries, so a strong probability they are lying (and have a different reason for "Israel has no right to exist").

MikeNovack

You yourself introduced the topic of colonialism and imperialism (so dear to kings ands queens). IsraelI Xionism is at present imperialistic and seeks to claim a large colony in the West Bank and Gaza.
accelafine wrote: ↑Sun Aug 03, 2025 9:24 pm
As an American what does the British monarchy have to do with you? Europe (NOT the US) has been flooded with the worst that islam has to offer, thanks to your own country's devastating effect on the planet with its ongoing love affair with the arms industry and planet-bullying.
As somebody from the US, the British monarchy has nothing to do with me (Canadians might object if I used American).

But I somehow recall that Europe has had an "immigration" problem for quite a while. Some of my ancestors forced their way into Europe in the 9th Century and took over what's now Hungary. Other earlier waves took down Rome, which had a scare hundreds of years before that when Brennus brought Celts through. But of course the Romans themselves claimed to be refugees from Troy. Guess that proved too much for the Etruscans. Maybe the Basques and the Sami not immigrants, but pretty

Is that why Israel handed over control of Gaza and the West bank in 2005, both of which actually belong to Israel anyway?? They gave them up voluntarily just so that they could be lumbered with those fucking nuisances AGAIN? They were glad to be shot of them. And what did the plasticinians do with that gift and all the billions that were given to them? Used it to make a handful of people billionaires and spent the rest on making life as miserable for Israelis as they possibly could. You really are a ridiculous old fool. And learn how to use the quote function. All you've done is make an incomprehensible mess.

[Alexis Jacobi]

For the longest time it was the Diaspora through which Jewry defined itself. True though that the eternal prayer — or was it something more like affirmation? — was “Next year in Jerusalem” [L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim].

Zionism however has posed Jewry an insoluble problem. It is that it is simply impossible, in this modernity, given our perspectives, to imagine a (more or less) theocratic state or one dominated by an ethnic/religious identification.

Try to image — it is a thought experiment — a political ideology similar in form to Zionism asserting itself in America or any of England’s former colonies. The notion of a Jewish State is, in the long run, impracticable. If ever too many non-Jews began to get demographic dominance they would have to be disempowered, nullified politically, excommunicated, exported, or annihilated.

Consider that in a decade or so (?) it is said that in Germany that Islamic peoples will come to be 30 or even 40% of the demographic.

Do you know where the Israel problem is heading? It is similar to the South African solution. There are 7 million Arabs and 7 million Jews within the borders of Israel. “Let them become members of a democratic state and work things out — as things are worked out in America, the “melting pot” of the world.”

On one hand there is an ideological political ideal said to be necessary and profoundly moral. While in contrast Israel attempts to define a state and nationalism with a radically incompatible determining structure.

Zionism, and Israelism, do indeed define Jewish identity. This is a long-standing creation of Jewry and its problems were noted long ago.

Now the rubber really meets the road. Can Zionist-Israeli identity survive in an world driven by American political idealism where peoples are forced to blend together in “propositional nations” and all former “identifications” are seen as retrograde and as immoral?

[MikeNovack]

MikeNovack

You yourself introduced the topic of colonialism and imperialism (so dear to kings ands queens). IsraelI Xionism is at present imperialistic and seeks to claim a large colony in the West Bank and Gaza.

Belinda, at roughly the same time as Israel came into existence British control over what was then called India ended. Shall I describe? The result was partition into Pakistan + East Pakistan(now Bangladesh) and India. There was a massive exchange of population, Muslim and Hindu, not always peaceful. But both sides accepted and integrated these refugees, did not keep them as "refugees"

When Israel formed, large numbers of Palestinians fled/were pushed out, mainly into Egypt and Jordan AND large numbers of Jews expelled from the Arab countries ending up in Israel. Egypt and Jordan did NOT accept/integrate the Palestinians. They remain refugees to this day. Israel did accept and integrate the Jews from Arab lands. If you bother looking up the demographic data (instead of trusting your ideology of European colonizers) you will discover that the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachi (Jews from Arab lands) -- well, whether the majority or just close depends on how you count Sephardi Jews and how do you count mixed Ashkenazi-Mizrachi heritage. Don't trust me, look it up for yourself.

Now we might argue Jordan had a good reason not to accept the refugees (there had not been a Jewish population to expel). There was no good reason for Egypt to have acted as it did. It HAD expelled a large Jewish population whose property could have been used to settle the refugees. Besides, going back thousands of years, Gaza (city) was Egypt's outpost/fort on the other side of the Sinai, intended to at least slow down any attackers from the east long enough for Egypt to gather it forces.

That we had clear European colonialism in the period from the end of WWI to past the end of WWII in neither case were the British or French acting for the interests of the Jews or the Arabs. Just their own interests. Prior to WWI it was Turkey, an imperial power even if non-European.

[Belinda]

MikeNovack

You yourself introduced the topic of colonialism and imperialism (so dear to kings ands queens). IsraelI Xionism is at present imperialistic and seeks to claim a large colony in the West Bank and Gaza.

Belinda, at roughly the same time as Israel came into existence British control over what was then called India ended. Shall I describe? The result was partition into Pakistan + East Pakistan(now Bangladesh) and India. There was a massive exchange of population, Muslim and Hindu, not always peaceful. But both sides accepted and integrated these refugees, did not keep them as "refugees"

When Israel formed, large numbers of Palestinians fled/were pushed out, mainly into Egypt and Jordan AND large numbers of Jews expelled from the Arab countries ending up in Israel. Egypt and Jordan did NOT accept/integrate the Palestinians. They remain refugees to this day. Israel did accept and integrate the Jews from Arab lands. If you bother looking up the demographic data (instead of trusting your ideology of European colonizers) you will discover that the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachi (Jews from Arab lands) -- well, whether the majority or just close depends on how you count Sephardi Jews and how do you count mixed Ashkenazi-Mizrachi heritage. Don't trust me, look it up for yourself.

Now we might argue Jordan had a good reason not to accept the refugees (there had not been a Jewish population to expel). There was no good reason for Egypt to have acted as it did. It HAD expelled a large Jewish population whose property could have been used to settle the refugees. Besides, going back thousands of years, Gaza (city) was Egypt's outpost/fort on the other side of the Sinai, intended to at least slow down any attackers from the east long enough for Egypt to gather it forces.

That we had clear European colonialism in the period from the end of WWI to past the end of WWII in neither case were the British or French acting for the interests of the Jews or the Arabs. Just their own interests. Prior to WWI it was Turkey, an imperial power even if non-European.

Thanks Mike. It will take me some time to absorb all that information and I hope to do so.

But I don't see how I can find what you have told me relevant to Israel's present behaviour including genocide, and plus the significant lobbying of US Jews, and how US and UK align their interests with Israel's, even making weapons of war for Israeli buyers.

[Belinda]

For the longest time it was the Diaspora through which Jewry defined itself. True though that the eternal prayer — or was it something more like affirmation? — was “Next year in Jerusalem” [L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim].

Zionism however has posed Jewry an insoluble problem. It is that it is simply impossible, in this modernity, given our perspectives, to imagine a (more or less) theocratic state or one dominated by an ethnic/religious identification.

Try to image — it is a thought experiment — a political ideology similar in form to Zionism asserting itself in America or any of England’s former colonies. The notion of a Jewish State is, in the long run, impracticable. If ever too many non-Jews began to get demographic dominance they would have to be disempowered, nullified politically, excommunicated, exported, or annihilated.

Consider that in a decade or so (?) it is said that in Germany that Islamic peoples will come to be 30 or even 40% of the demographic.

Do you know where the Israel problem is heading? It is similar to the South African solution. There are 7 million Arabs and 7 million Jews within the borders of Israel. “Let them become members of a democratic state and work things out — as things are worked out in America, the “melting pot” of the world.”

On one hand there is an ideological political ideal said to be necessary and profoundly moral. While in contrast Israel attempts to define a state and nationalism with a radically incompatible determining structure.

Zionism, and Israelism, do indeed define Jewish identity. This is a long-standing creation of Jewry and its problems were noted long ago.

Now the rubber really meets the road. Can Zionist-Israeli identity survive in an world driven by American political idealism where peoples are forced to blend together in “propositional nations” and all former “identifications” are seen as retrograde and as immoral?

But the very powerful USA treats Israel as its proxy in the Middle East. And Europeans are scared of the USA

[MikeNovack]

Zionism, and Israelism, do indeed define Jewish identity. This is a long-standing creation of Jewry and its problems were noted long ago.

Now the rubber really meets the road. Can Zionist-Israeli identity survive in an world driven by American political idealism where peoples are forced to blend together in “propositional nations” and all former “identifications” are seen as retrograde and as immoral?

This is nothing new for the Tribe of Israel. Went through it before, many times. No reason to suppose will be any different this time around.

[accelafine]

MikeNovack

You yourself introduced the topic of colonialism and imperialism (so dear to kings ands queens). IsraelI Xionism is at present imperialistic and seeks to claim a large colony in the West Bank and Gaza.

Belinda, at roughly the same time as Israel came into existence British control over what was then called India ended. Shall I describe? The result was partition into Pakistan + East Pakistan(now Bangladesh) and India. There was a massive exchange of population, Muslim and Hindu, not always peaceful. But both sides accepted and integrated these refugees, did not keep them as "refugees"

When Israel formed, large numbers of Palestinians fled/were pushed out, mainly into Egypt and Jordan AND large numbers of Jews expelled from the Arab countries ending up in Israel. Egypt and Jordan did NOT accept/integrate the Palestinians. They remain refugees to this day. Israel did accept and integrate the Jews from Arab lands. If you bother looking up the demographic data (instead of trusting your ideology of European colonizers) you will discover that the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachi (Jews from Arab lands) -- well, whether the majority or just close depends on how you count Sephardi Jews and how do you count mixed Ashkenazi-Mizrachi heritage. Don't trust me, look it up for yourself.

Now we might argue Jordan had a good reason not to accept the refugees (there had not been a Jewish population to expel). There was no good reason for Egypt to have acted as it did. It HAD expelled a large Jewish population whose property could have been used to settle the refugees. Besides, going back thousands of years, Gaza (city) was Egypt's outpost/fort on the other side of the Sinai, intended to at least slow down any attackers from the east long enough for Egypt to gather it forces.

That we had clear European colonialism in the period from the end of WWI to past the end of WWII in neither case were the British or French acting for the interests of the Jews or the Arabs. Just their own interests. Prior to WWI it was Turkey, an imperial power even if non-European.

Thanks Mike. It will take me some time to absorb all that information and I hope to do so.

But I don't see how I can find what you have told me relevant to Israel's present behaviour including genocide, and plus the significant lobbying of US Jews, and how US and UK align their interests with Israel's, even making weapons of war for Israeli buyers.

Must be a 'genocide' because Hamas says it is. It's no doubt too late for you but you really should have fed your brain and become literate when you were younger and had the chance (and invested in a good old dictionary).

[Alexis Jacobi]

Zionism, and Israelism, do indeed define Jewish identity. This is a long-standing creation of Jewry and its problems were noted long ago.

Now the rubber really meets the road. Can Zionist-Israeli identity survive in an world driven by American political idealism where peoples are forced to blend together in “propositional nations” and all former “identifications” are seen as retrograde and as immoral?

This is nothing new for the Tribe of Israel. Went through it before, many times. No reason to suppose will be any different this time around.

I would (respectfully) beg to differ. First, to be a Jew is extremely distinct from being an Israeli. So Jews and Judaism did not require the (rather forced) founding of the Israeli state.

It is a curious contrast, I think, that 30 years ago “the world” insisted that South Africa become one, democratic nation.

In the logic of modernity, I cannot see how modern Israel can escape, if you will, this destiny. Some Israelis say “There are 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians within the present borders of Israel and no one is going anywhere…”

The implication is plain.

Israeli identity could change. But Jewish practice will not change.

There is another huge territory of confusion: many millions of Israelis are secular Jews without, in fact, an allegiance to much traditionally associated with “being Jewish”. Their allegiance is to a nation, a state.

Frankly (here I refer to some Jews who say Israel is in deep deep trouble) I do not share your optimism. The establishment of Israel, under those circumstances, and the resulting conflicts, will not turn out well.