Christianity

[Alexiev]

Compare that to the life, values and actions of the Carpenter of Galilee…do you really believe that Catholic crusaders and inquisitors were acting on His orders? You can see that their actions were nothing like the teaching of the One they wanted you to believe they followed. They were lying…it’s easy to see.

But how about those who follow the desert murderer? Is there anything in his life that suggests he would have even slightly disapproved of the Islamic crusades, or pedophilia, or slavery, or slitting of the throats of “infidels,” or today’s acts of terrorism? Not a thing. In fact, it’s all in perfect harmony both with what Mo taught and with what Mo modelled in his own behaviour.

This is the point. You can’t do evil and be like Christ. But you can do all kinds of evil and be a ‘good’ Muslim.

Perhaps. But that wasn't what you claimed earlier, which I clearly refuted. Near universal Christian faith does not conduce peace, justice and harmony, as the Middle Ages in Europe demonstrate. This may or may not be Jesus' fault, but it is clearly the case. Modern secular humanism (as practiced in most of the Western World today) seems to produce more mercy, justice, and human well-being. Perhaps the subjective morality which you appear to deplore conduces well-being, justice and mercy more effectively than Christianity. History seems to suggest as much.

[Dubious]

Whatever you say about that won’t help secularism. As I said before: no matter how many other ideologies/religions cannot rationalize morality, it remains true that secularism cannot. Their failures, if such they have, do not add success to secularism’s possibilities.

Secularism dies on the results of its own worldview; not on anybody else’s.

Secularism doesn't need any help, least of all from religion.

It needs everything, from somewhere. But it has nothing. There’s not a single thing it is capable of telling us about morality, because there’s not one single thing it commands us to do, think, believe, change…etc.

You amount to a complete moral failure, one without a conscience, if you need to be commanded into it! To be precise, it puts you and your kind into a vastly inferior position, especially where morality is concerned.

The question remains:

Who is one going to believe? Is the actual evidence from many sources or the insane beliefs of a bible nut to whom every kind of evidence is meaningless or negatable? It's well-known that it's impossible to change the mind of one who has self-sabotaged his thinking apparatus to only travel within a single groove, all exit ramps being firmly blocked.

Do we need any more nut cases on this planet than we already have living in a reality that's over 2000 years old? There is, in truth, no toxin humans have created more evil, more potent than religion; it does indeed poison everything from the ground up!

...and your type keeps proving it!

[Gary Childress]

It’s not merely a supported argument, it’s an argument that can even be empirically demonstrated, as I just did.

Moreover, there’s not even the hint of a contrary allegation, from anybody. Because nobody has been able to come up with even one imperative that we can deduce from secularism/subjectivism. Not one. Ever.

There could be no more conclusive proofs. And I think you realize it, hate it, and don’t want to accept it, but can’t fight it.

If your God is the foundation of morality,…

You’re desperately trying to shift the grounds, I see. But I’m not debating with you, right now, whether any ideology in particular has information on the moral world. I’m just pointing out that secularism/subjectivism has none at all.

That’s the only problem we’re dealing with right now. We’ll get to other perspectives in due time. They’re irrelevant, for the moment. Everything I’ve been saying about the secular perspective will remain true, no matter what we discover about any others. Secularism’s problem is unto itself, not a consequence of anybody else’s failure.

There is no problem with secularity. Morality can exist with secularity. We all know right from wong. That's all it takes. So stop running around spreading nonsense like atheists can't be moral. The only one here who lacks morality is you because you think genocide is moral if your God commands it. Religion only distorts reality. The religious are more confused than anyone else on this Earth. You guys thought slavery was morally justified when some of your pastors said it was ordained by God. Religion is a disgrace to common sense. No wonder you think there's no morality if there's no God around to tell you to commit genocide.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

No Christian at the time, or since, compares with the heroic decency of this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014 ... index.html Muslim, in a genocide of Christians by Christians, including their priests of course. One of the worst since the Reformation.

[MikeNovack]

This passage strongly condemns ritual without moral integrity, especially failure to uphold social justice.[/color]

Precisely, the message of the prophets. Be careful, however, to keep lines in context. Thus usually the prophets are not condemning the rituals per se but more like "they do the rituals but at the same time do evil". In other words, that the sacrificial rituals without good behavior useless. That's not quite the same as "don't bother with the rituals".

HOWEVER -- the sages were able to go there (not the sages of mishna times but the later commentaries that are the talmud) because the Temple had been destroyed. Thus no longer able to bring the ritual sacrifices. So went from "do the rituals AND the good behaviors" to "do the good behaviors AND note unable to do the rituals"

[Alexis Jacobi]

Being a light/example to the nations is a far cry from taming/yoking the heathen.

[…]

Judaism doesn't care what others believe. Judaism doesn't believe [it] necessary for others to worship the Jewish god or follow Jewish laws to be a good person.

The Prophetic mission, as expressed in the Prophets, does indeed show God’s concern for the heathen practices. Judaism is a religion of universal intention. And the largest part of the Hebrew-inspired mission was undertaken by Christian culture.

I realize Jewish religious zealots are a very fringe group, however you can find many Rabbis lecturing on Jewish historical mission, and the high relevance of the plan, such as it is, to reconstruct the Temple. There are many Rabbis who speak about this quoting Torah and Talmudic texts.

Though he is an intense anti-Christian and concomitantly anti-Hebrew, Adam Green has created compilations of Rabbis who speak about Jewish superiority as a core tenet of chosenness.

My view is simply that “missionizing is inherent in Hebraism and in Christianity. God is understood to have a grand plan for the planet and for humanity.

True that in the Diaspora Jews could not missionize and convoit, but not because the will to share, communicate and teach was not strong. It was simply too dangerous, except at certain favorable historical junctures.

Israel — the forced return — is proving to have very dangerous results for Jewry. And if there is a renewed negative animus for Jewry it seems far more an anti-Israel sentiment. American Zionism has complicated this tremendously, and certainly Christian Zionism.

Despite what anyone says or believes, the expression of Hebrew Biblical values by Jewish cultural agents seems far more positive than anything else. I personally do not understand the negative “mood” on this forum that fails to understand this. Without Judaism and Christianity the world would be far worse off.

[Immanuel Can]

Compare that to the life, values and actions of the Carpenter of Galilee…do you really believe that Catholic crusaders and inquisitors were acting on His orders? You can see that their actions were nothing like the teaching of the One they wanted you to believe they followed. They were lying…it’s easy to see.

But how about those who follow the desert murderer? Is there anything in his life that suggests he would have even slightly disapproved of the Islamic crusades, or pedophilia, or slavery, or slitting of the throats of “infidels,” or today’s acts of terrorism? Not a thing. In fact, it’s all in perfect harmony both with what Mo taught and with what Mo modelled in his own behaviour.

This is the point. You can’t do evil and be like Christ. But you can do all kinds of evil and be a ‘good’ Muslim.

Perhaps.

“Perhaps?” “Perhaps?” The evidence is clear and in front of you.

[Immanuel Can]

Secularism doesn't need any help, least of all from religion.

It needs everything, from somewhere. But it has nothing. There’s not a single thing it is capable of telling us about morality, because there’s not one single thing it commands us to do, think, believe, change…etc.

You…

Oh, so now the topic changes from “secularism” to “you.” The old ad hominem ruse.

Not buying.

[Immanuel Can]

There is no problem with secularity. Morality can exist with secularity.

Which moral axiom “exists” as a logical consequence of secularity?

We all know right from wong.

Well, you spelled it “wong.” But knowing it is instinctive, coded in every one of us by our Creator. Explaining the justification for you knowing it, that’s not so easy. How does a secularist know there’s any such thing as morality? Not from secularism. So how does he know it?

[Age]

There is no problem with secularity. Morality can exist with secularity.

Which moral axiom “exists” as a logical consequence of secularity?

Which moral axiom exists as a logical consequence of religion?

And, which religion has that moral axiom?

Not that you have the courage to answer at all, here, because you know you would end up looking like an absolutely closed and blind person.

We all know right from wong.

Well, you spelled it “wong.” But knowing it is instinctive, coded in every one of us by our Creator.

'Trying to' add in a 'male' created every thing, here, will not help you at all.

Explaining the justification for you knowing it, that’s not so easy.

But it is.

Why would you presume and believe otherwise?

How does a secularist know there’s any such thing as morality? Not from secularism.

What a Truly absurd thing to assume, and to believe.

So how does he know it?

What a Truly narrowed way of looking and seeing, here.

[Walker]

Christianity is not polytheistic, so there is no "your God."

There is just God.

This is a Christianity thread, not a polytheistic thread.

Christianity is the worship of a God that is not worshipped by everyone. So I refer to it as "your God". Whether there is a God or not and whether the Christian Bible is the definitive word of God are two separate issues and are often conflated by Christians. Try to use your brain if you can.

No, Christianity is the worship of God, not a God. Just ask any Christian. Ask IC, he will set you straight.

Saying “your God,” is like saying “your Reality,” when everyone knows there is only one Reality, which is apprehended according to the capacity of the receiver, thus giving the illusion of different realities when folks start comparing particulars.

[Dubious]

If the bible is the supposed word of god, the old fellow must have had Alzheimer's with all the contradictions...of which only a few are mentioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy3_daJUbRc&t=427s

[Walker]

It stands to reason that the lesser cannot contain the greater, so the lesser’s incomprehension of the greater gets turned into a conceptual contradiction by the lesser, seeing as how folks oft' assume that opposites actually exist.

Isaiah 55:8,9

[popeye1945]

The only rational foundation of morality is the conscious biological subject, its survival and well-being; the supernatural and the gods are just once or twice removed from reality. Religions themselves are biological extensions of our ancestor, embracing the knowledge of their times, which was largely ignorance. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things, and for human morality, humanity is the source of all meaning, which it projects outward as extensions of its knowledge and its nature in time. If humanity is to survive, we must shake off these archaic mythologies which cause so much division and hostilities between warring imaginary friends, as old Albert said once, it is time for humanity to grow up. Good advice, for those who cannot change must perish.

[Dubious]

Ask IC, he will set you straight.

Sorry! Couldn't help myself!