Christianity

[Immanuel Can]

It does not logically follow that if there is no God then morality cannot be objective nor that morality is non-existent.

Prove it. Just suggest one single imperative that secularism/subjectivism demands of us. Just one. Any one.

And if you can’t, you have every reason to believe I’m right. And if nobody else can help you out with that, you know I’m right.

No one has to "prove" something doesn't follow from an unsupported argument.

It’s not merely a supported argument, it’s an argument that can even be empirically demonstrated, as I just did.

Moreover, there’s not even the hint of a contrary allegation, from anybody. Because nobody has been able to come up with even one imperative that we can deduce from secularism/subjectivism. Not one. Ever.

There could be no more conclusive proofs. And I think you realize it, hate it, and don’t want to accept it, but can’t fight it.

[Immanuel Can]

Just suggest one single imperative that secularism/subjectivism demands of us. Just one. Any one.

I got it!

To really REALLY please the Lord we must burn Immanuel at the stake!

Disprove that, suckers!

Well, we’ll see what the Lord wants. If He’s told us any such thing as that, we should be able to find where He has. The papacy of AJ might not be that place.

[MikeNovack]

It is not well understood though that the motive of “world domination”, and indeed the civilizing of the world, is a fundamental Hebrew notion. The process of the Hebrew revelation in history is, literally, to tame to heathen and yoke him up to God’s purposes.

Being a light/example to the nations is a far cry from taming/yoking the heathen.

The term translated as "god-fearing" meant pious/moral conduct because of regard for god or the gods (NOT specifying which). Does this make sense to you. If a caravan guard were swearing to protect you from bandits, you wanted him to "fear" (regard) HIS god/gods, not to swear by yours, perhaps to you the one true god but not the one he believed in.

Judaism doesn't care what others believe. Judaism doesn't believe necessary for others to worship the Jewish god or follow Jewish laws to be a good person.

To get a sense of the "polyreligious" world in which Judaism evolved, look at the book Jonah, because it is describing the reaction of NON-JEWS to an encounter with the Jewish god. How do the sailors behave? How does the Assyrian king? People would sort of know about the gods of neighbors. The "oh shit" of the sailors (that god has a reputation for tricky "moral testing" -- they don't know if they are to obey and throw Jonah overboard or refuse). That the Assyrian king knows "that god is open to shows of repentance and remorse".

[Belinda]

Because an invented God would be just human ruse to get away with tyrannizing others. Only the real God will do.

But it's not the God that makes his people tyrants.

Right. It’s the people who want to be the tyrants. And they only use whatever excuse they can find to help them get the job done. It could be “national interests,” or “the common good,” or “social justice,” or “Allah,” or “Ahura Mazda,” or “democracy,” or “saving the planet from climate disaster” — unscrupulous and tyrannical men will use any cause at all to do their work. And in most cases, they use the name of something good to enable them to do the evil they desire; after all, if they came out and said, “What we’d really like to do is take everything from you, then kill you,” then you probably would be alert to them. But it’s the bait-and-switch that works for them, time after time.

But the One they’ll answer to it for, that’s the real God.

I'm with you so far. Allah and God are each of them absolutely perfect. Jesus interpreted God . Muhammad interpreted Allah. Bad people of every religion and sect weaponise interpretations including that of Jesus of Nazareth ,and Koran.
Removing the Hadith and the secondary Jihad from Islamic doctrine is a good move.
Doctrines should not be allowed to become dogmas. Xianity too may be and often is updated .The Sea of Faith , and Society of Friends, with UU close behind are updated Christian theology. Such liberal theologies as those guard core values against misuse.

[Belinda]

"SOME religions do not tyrannize others, do not care what other people do or not believe. But that is not true of yours"

None of the Abrahamic.

That's not true. Christianity and Islam impose themselves on others. Judaism has never done so. Even though Jews might believe god the only true god they believe this god is giving a rule set for Jews to live by. Not anybody else. Not required of others to live by THESE rules to be a good person. Converting to Judaism involves a ceremonial adoption into the tribe. Reserved (not our business) what rules god might have for other people.

That Judaism is a religion of praxis is well known. However praxis is a lot besides Jewish ethnic ritual.
Isaiah 1:11–17
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats…
Bring no more vain offerings…
Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice,
correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow’s cause.”

This passage strongly condemns ritual without moral integrity, especially failure to uphold social justice.

[Immanuel Can]

But it's not the God that makes his people tyrants.

Right. It’s the people who want to be the tyrants. And they only use whatever excuse they can find to help them get the job done. It could be “national interests,” or “the common good,” or “social justice,” or “Allah,” or “Ahura Mazda,” or “democracy,” or “saving the planet from climate disaster” — unscrupulous and tyrannical men will use any cause at all to do their work. And in most cases, they use the name of something good to enable them to do the evil they desire; after all, if they came out and said, “What we’d really like to do is take everything from you, then kill you,” then you probably would be alert to them. But it’s the bait-and-switch that works for them, time after time.

But the One they’ll answer to it for, that’s the real God.

Allah and God are each of them absolutely perfect.

Why do you suggest Allah’s perfect? Because that’s what Muslims claim? But look at what he approves, and look at what his most ardent and committed followers do today, in the service of Allah? And look at his “prophet”: by Islamic accounts, very, very far from being an admirable human being. Why do you call Allah perfect, then? Where’s the evidence for that?

Bad people of every religion and sect weaponise interpretations including that of Jesus of Nazareth ,and Koran.

Yes, they do: but there’s a stark difference, and one we must note: those who follow Allah most passionately are murderers, rapists, terrorists, thieves, slave owners, wife abusers, and such. That’s what their ideology requires. Now, flip the script: those who follow Jesus most closely are kind, merciful, lawful, charitable, generous, longsuffering, patient, humble…and these values, in each case, are reflected in the conduct and lives of their founders.

The more people are genuinely Christian, the more peace, mercy and justice there will be; the more people are devoted to Islam…well, you can see the results.

[Belinda]

Right. It’s the people who want to be the tyrants. And they only use whatever excuse they can find to help them get the job done. It could be “national interests,” or “the common good,” or “social justice,” or “Allah,” or “Ahura Mazda,” or “democracy,” or “saving the planet from climate disaster” — unscrupulous and tyrannical men will use any cause at all to do their work. And in most cases, they use the name of something good to enable them to do the evil they desire; after all, if they came out and said, “What we’d really like to do is take everything from you, then kill you,” then you probably would be alert to them. But it’s the bait-and-switch that works for them, time after time.

But the One they’ll answer to it for, that’s the real God.

Allah and God are each of them absolutely perfect.

Why do you suggest Allah’s perfect? Because that’s what Muslims claim? But look at what he approves, and look at what his most ardent and committed followers do today, in the service of Allah? And look at his “prophet”: by Islamic accounts, very, very far from being an admirable human being. Why do you call Allah perfect, then? Where’s the evidence for that?

Bad people of every religion and sect weaponise interpretations including that of Jesus of Nazareth ,and Koran.

Yes, they do: but there’s a stark difference, and one we must note: those who follow Allah most passionately are murderers, rapists, terrorists, thieves, slave owners, wife abusers, and such. That’s what their ideology requires. Now, flip the script: those who follow Jesus most closely are kind, merciful, lawful, charitable, generous, longsuffering, patient, humble…and these values, in each case, are reflected in the conduct and lives of their founders.

The more people are genuinely Christian, the more peace, mercy and justice there will be; the more people are devoted to Islam…well, you can see the results.

I think you made up those statistics Immanuel.

[Gary Childress]

Prove it. Just suggest one single imperative that secularism/subjectivism demands of us. Just one. Any one.

And if you can’t, you have every reason to believe I’m right. And if nobody else can help you out with that, you know I’m right.

No one has to "prove" something doesn't follow from an unsupported argument.

It’s not merely a supported argument, it’s an argument that can even be empirically demonstrated, as I just did.

Moreover, there’s not even the hint of a contrary allegation, from anybody. Because nobody has been able to come up with even one imperative that we can deduce from secularism/subjectivism. Not one. Ever.

There could be no more conclusive proofs. And I think you realize it, hate it, and don’t want to accept it, but can’t fight it.

If your God is the foundation of morality, then it cannot be the case that anything and everything your God can possibly command is moral. We obviously have our own moral sensibilities. Where they come from is anyone's guess. If you want to say they come from your God, fair enough; however, your own book states that your God has commanded mortals to engage in immoral acts such as genocide and testing a person to see if he would murder his own son if so commanded. Your God has also engaged in immoral acts himself, according to your guidebook, such as premeditated mass murder in a flood.

So you have a problem. What your God commands or does is not always the right thing to command or do. That hardly demonstrates that your God is the foundation of morality. Morality is obviously separate from your God. Otherwise, we would not be able to tell the difference between a moral command from God and an immoral one. A moral act and an immoral act from your God are two separate things. If you want to say that morality is therefore subjective if it's not commanded by God, then whatever. Be a sycophant to a demon if you want.

[Walker]

Christianity is not polytheistic, so there is no "your God."

There is just God.

This is a Christianity thread, not a polytheistic thread.

[Immanuel Can]

Allah and God are each of them absolutely perfect.

Why do you suggest Allah’s perfect? Because that’s what Muslims claim? But look at what he approves, and look at what his most ardent and committed followers do today, in the service of Allah? And look at his “prophet”: by Islamic accounts, very, very far from being an admirable human being. Why do you call Allah perfect, then? Where’s the evidence for that?

Bad people of every religion and sect weaponise interpretations including that of Jesus of Nazareth ,and Koran.

Yes, they do: but there’s a stark difference, and one we must note: those who follow Allah most passionately are murderers, rapists, terrorists, thieves, slave owners, wife abusers, and such. That’s what their ideology requires. Now, flip the script: those who follow Jesus most closely are kind, merciful, lawful, charitable, generous, longsuffering, patient, humble…and these values, in each case, are reflected in the conduct and lives of their founders.

The more people are genuinely Christian, the more peace, mercy and justice there will be; the more people are devoted to Islam…well, you can see the results.

I think you made up those statistics Immanuel.

I can’t see that I listed any statistics, so I’m not sure what your objection is. The facts are evident to anybody who sees the daily news, or has the most basic familiarity with those worldviews. And if you know what each religion teaches, you know it’s the truth.

[Gary Childress]

Christianity is not polytheistic, so there is no "your God."

There is just God.

This is a Christianity thread, not a polytheistic thread.

Christianity is the worship of a God that is not worshipped by everyone. So I refer to it as "your God". Whether there is a God or not and whether the Christian Bible is the definitive word of God are two separate issues and are often conflated by Christians. Try to use your brain if you can.

[Immanuel Can]

No one has to "prove" something doesn't follow from an unsupported argument.

It’s not merely a supported argument, it’s an argument that can even be empirically demonstrated, as I just did.

Moreover, there’s not even the hint of a contrary allegation, from anybody. Because nobody has been able to come up with even one imperative that we can deduce from secularism/subjectivism. Not one. Ever.

There could be no more conclusive proofs. And I think you realize it, hate it, and don’t want to accept it, but can’t fight it.

If your God is the foundation of morality,…

You’re desperately trying to shift the grounds, I see. But I’m not debating with you, right now, whether any ideology in particular has information on the moral world. I’m just pointing out that secularism/subjectivism has none at all.

That’s the only problem we’re dealing with right now. We’ll get to other perspectives in due time. They’re irrelevant, for the moment. Everything I’ve been saying about the secular perspective will remain true, no matter what we discover about any others. Secularism’s problem is unto itself, not a consequence of anybody else’s failure.

[Alexiev]

Yes, they do: but there’s a stark difference, and one we must note: those who follow Allah most passionately are murderers, rapists, terrorists, thieves, slave owners, wife abusers, and such. That’s what their ideology requires. Now, flip the script: those who follow Jesus most closely are kind, merciful, lawful, charitable, generous, longsuffering, patient, humble…and these values, in each case, are reflected in the conduct and lives of their founders.

The more people are genuinely Christian, the more peace, mercy and justice there will be; the more people are devoted to Islam…well, you can see the results.

Huh? The Middle Ages in Europe were characterized by nearly universal Christian faith and such mayhem and violence that all towns were fortified and castles were needed to protect life and limb. Peace, mercy and justice were rare commodities.

Modern Europe -- multi-cultural and agnostic-- is far safer, more just, and more merciful. Like you, I summon no statistics, only a basic knowledge of history and common sense.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, they do: but there’s a stark difference, and one we must note: those who follow Allah most passionately are murderers, rapists, terrorists, thieves, slave owners, wife abusers, and such. That’s what their ideology requires. Now, flip the script: those who follow Jesus most closely are kind, merciful, lawful, charitable, generous, longsuffering, patient, humble…and these values, in each case, are reflected in the conduct and lives of their founders.

The more people are genuinely Christian, the more peace, mercy and justice there will be; the more people are devoted to Islam…well, you can see the results.

Huh? The Middle Ages in Europe were characterized by nearly universal Christian faith and such mayhem and violence that all towns were fortified and castles were needed to protect life and limb. Peace, mercy and justice were rare commodities.

Compare that to the life, values and actions of the Carpenter of Galilee…do you really believe that Catholic crusaders and inquisitors were acting on His orders? You can see that their actions were nothing like the teaching of the One they wanted you to believe they followed. They were lying…it’s easy to see.

But how about those who follow the desert murderer? Is there anything in his life that suggests he would have even slightly disapproved of the Islamic crusades, or pedophilia, or slavery, or slitting of the throats of “infidels,” or today’s acts of terrorism? Not a thing. In fact, it’s all in perfect harmony both with what Mo taught and with what Mo modelled in his own behaviour.

This is the point. You can’t do evil and be like Christ. But you can do all kinds of evil and be a ‘good’ Muslim.

[Alexiev]

Yes, they do: but there’s a stark difference, and one we must note: those who follow Allah most passionately are murderers, rapists, terrorists, thieves, slave owners, wife abusers, and such. That’s what their ideology requires. Now, flip the script: those who follow Jesus most closely are kind, merciful, lawful, charitable, generous, longsuffering, patient, humble…and these values, in each case, are reflected in the conduct and lives of their founders.

The more people are genuinely Christian, the more peace, mercy and justice there will be; the more people are devoted to Islam…well, you can see the results.

Huh? The Middle Ages in Europe were characterized by nearly universal Christian faith and such mayhem and violence that all towns were fortified and castles were needed to protect life and limb. Peace, mercy and justice were rare commodities.

Compare that to the life, values and actions of the Carpenter of Galilee…do you really believe that Catholic crusaders and inquisitors were acting on His orders? You can see that their actions were nothing like the teaching of the One they wanted you to believe they followed. They were lying…it’s easy to see.

But how about those who follow the desert murderer? Is there anything in his life that suggests he would have even slightly disapproved of the Islamic crusades, or pedophilia, or slavery, or slitting of the throats of “infidels,” or today’s acts of terrorism? Not a thing. In fact, it’s all in perfect harmony both with what Mo taught and with what Mo modelled in his own behaviour.

This is the point. You can’t do evil and be like Christ. But you can do all kinds of evil and be a ‘good’ Muslim.