Christianity

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Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 6:48 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 6:02 am
No prob. Marx got everything wrong, especially about the future. That future has now become the past. History has already disproved him.
Not so fast...

Response from Gemini: Is Marx still important?
Yes, Karl Marx is still considered important, though his legacy is complex and his theories are met with both strong criticism and enduring influence. While the political and economic systems that were created in his name—such as those in the former Soviet Union—have largely been discredited, his analytical framework continues to be a vital tool for understanding contemporary issues.

Here's a breakdown of why Marx remains important today:

### 1. Enduring Critique of Capitalism

Many of Marx's core observations about capitalism continue to resonate in the 21st century.

* **Inequality and Exploitation:** Marx's analysis of class struggle, surplus value, and the exploitation of labor still provides a powerful lens for examining the widening gap between the rich and the poor. Contemporary issues like the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few and the precariousness of work in the "gig economy" are often viewed through a Marxist framework.
* **Economic Instability:** Marx saw capitalism as a system prone to internal crises. The global financial crisis of 2008, for example, prompted renewed interest in his theories, as they offer a way to understand how the pursuit of profit and the financialization of the economy can lead to systemic instability.
* **Alienation:** His concept of "alienation" describes how workers can feel disconnected from their labor, the products they create, and from each other. This idea is still used to discuss the psychological and social effects of modern work life, where people may feel powerless and detached from the purpose of their jobs.

### 2. Influence on Social Sciences and Humanities

Beyond economics, Marx's ideas have had a profound and lasting impact on multiple academic disciplines.

* **Sociology:** Marx is considered one of the founding fathers of modern sociology. His "conflict theory," which posits that society is in a state of perpetual struggle over limited resources, remains a foundational concept for understanding social change and power dynamics.
* **Political Science:** His work laid the groundwork for critical political economy and provides a framework for analyzing the relationship between economic systems and political power.
* **Other Disciplines:** His concepts have been adapted and used in fields ranging from critical theory and postcolonial studies to cultural studies and environmental studies. For instance, some scholars use Marxist ideas to critique the link between capitalist production and environmental degradation.

### 3. Impact on Political and Social Movements

While the revolutionary communism he envisioned has not been widely adopted in its pure form, his ideas continue to inspire a range of political and social movements.

* **Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy:** Many left-wing movements today, including democratic socialism, draw from Marx's critique of capitalism to advocate for policies like progressive taxation, strong social safety nets, and public ownership of key industries.
* **Social Justice Activism:** Concepts like class struggle and the analysis of systemic oppression have influenced movements advocating for racial, gender, and economic justice, providing a vocabulary and framework for critiquing deep-seated inequalities.

In summary, while the pure economic and political blueprint of Marxism has been widely critiqued and largely abandoned, Karl Marx's ideas remain a crucial point of reference. He is important not because his predictions came true in the way he expected, but because he provided a powerful and still-relevant set of tools for critically analyzing the complexities, contradictions, and inequalities inherent in capitalism.
Very good. I'm a Marxist.

Immanuel Can believes there is one way and only one way to truth. While IC's way suits IC and many others Marxism or Christian Marxism is more reasonable. For an exposition of Christian Marxism see Liberation theology, or William Blake.

Archbishop Oscar Romero is closely associated with liberation theology, a theological movement that interprets the Christian gospel through the experience of the poor and oppressed. He became a powerful voice for social justice in El Salvador, speaking out against human rights abuses and advocating for the poor, which ultimately led to his assassination.
MikeNovack
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Re: Christianity

Post by MikeNovack »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 9:01 am
Very good. I'm a Marxist.

Immanuel Can believes there is one way and only one way to truth. While IC's way suits IC and many others Marxism or Christian Marxism is more reasonable. For an exposition of Christian Marxism see Liberation theology, or William Blake.

Archbishop Oscar Romero is closely associated with liberation theology, a theological movement that interprets the Christian gospel through the experience of the poor and oppressed. He became a powerful voice for social justice in El Salvador, speaking out against human rights abuses and advocating for the poor, which ultimately led to his assassination.
forum topic.

The intersection with Christianity is too small

We should discuss Marxism. But should be its own tin ways similar to a religion. opic. The intersection with Christianity is too small. Yes I've known Catholic Workers and even heard Dorothy Day speak. But close to as much an intersection with other religions. To say nothing about the fact that for some adherents, Marxism functions

Being mid 19th Century, Marx's "material realism is natural. Physics then was deterministic, not yet considering chaotic systems (determined but not predictable) let alone quantum (probabilistic). The trouble is that Marx is treating as material things that are not. When we say A owns B we are not stating a material relationship between A and B. We are describing a relationship that is a social truth, true if/f enough people in the society believe it to be true. If only A believes it, his utterance "I own B" is treated as words of a madman, not something to investigate in terms of material reality.

"Leftism" existed long before Marx, and still exists outside of Marxism.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 6:48 am Response from Gemini: Is Marx still important?


### 1. Enduring Critique of Capitalism
“Capitalism” is a fake. There’s no such thing.

The “-ism” marks it as an attempt to make commerce into an ideology, as if people could, so to speak, have a philosophy or religion of “capital.”

The word did not actually even exist prior to just a couple of years before Marx wrote. (Etymologists agree that it was the middle of the 19th Century, at the earliest. There had long been the word “capital,” as referring to available monies of various kinds. But no “Capitalism." I haven’t discovered that Marx himself invented it, but he certainly appropriated it very early in its history, when it was hardly even circulating. Before that, there simply was no such concept as an “-ism” of surplus value. And I suggest to you that there wasn’t any such reality, either. And there isn’t one today.

Unlike Marxism, this “Capitalism” thing has no manifesto, like The Communist Manifesto. Nobody “believes in” capital. It has no teleological or utopian dream, either…no particular precepts, no societies dedicated to it, no political program, and no acolytes. There’s no central figure of this “Capitalism,” like Marx or Engels. In fact, this so-called ideology has none of the basic features of ideology at all. It seems to catch together disparate economic strategies, the sole common feature of which is that they create economic growth of some kind, are not Socialist. We might instead use the word “profit,” or “commerce” or “value-added,” or some such synonym that does not imply an ideology, and we’d be more accurate.

So here’s the best hypothesis: “Capitalism” is a Socialist bogeyman, not a real thing. Marx needed it, because he was seeking to characterize the economic landscape as a war between two ideologies, rather than a market system. This had two effects he needed: one, it provided an imaginary object of hatred upon which Socialist ideologues could focus their ire, and two, it made the manifestly ideological and aspirational nature of Socialism not obviously a flaw anymore — it redescribed the situation as a competition between two ideologies, rather than between one ideology and all free-market kinds of options.

Many of Marx's core observations about capitalism continue to resonate in the 21st century.
* **Inequality and Exploitation:** Marx's analysis of class struggle, surplus value, and the exploitation of labor still provides a powerful lens for examining the widening gap between the rich and the poor.
It never worked out where Marx insisted it would and should. It was, in particular, England, and also possibly continental places like Germany. And Marx is very clear on the sequence: his industrial “Capitalism” is suppose to be the prerequisite, in fact the dynamic, that issues in the revolution, and then in Socialism, which later converts into the Communist utopia. It is the dialectical contradictions within “Capitalist” society which are supposed to make Socialism inevitable, historically unavoidable, and expedient.

But when the alleged “workers’ revolutions” came about, it was in two places about which Marx had not predicted anything, and in contradiction to his theory of dialectical progress. It happened first in the feudal-monarchial Russia, and then in the peasant-rich land of China, and without any “Capitalist” phase at all. In Germany, which was developed, it was National Socialism that emerged, not International Socialism (Communism). In fact, the defeat of Marx’s expectations was so complete that it gave rise to a thing called “The Frankfurt School,” a collocation of disappointed Socialist philosophers, who had to reinvent Marx’s whole analysis, using other categories than “class” to explain the same aspirational and teleological outcomes. This “school” later migrated to America, to Columbia University in particular, and from there established the Neo-Marxist ideology which is the only kind of Communist ideology that today’s informed Marxists find at all defensible.

This is why Marx is, today, by his own followers, relegated to being viewed as “Crude Marxism,” by which they mean, “a kind of Marxism that was admittedly flawed and needed revision, so we don’t have to defend what Marx taught in specific anymore.” If Marxists today had to defend his views on their historical merit, they wouldn’t last long — and I think their revisions make it quite evident that they know that’s the case.
* **Economic Instability:** Marx saw capitalism as a system prone to internal crises.
The insight that global economic dynamics are volatile is perhaps the least impressive of Marx’s achievements. Unfortunately for him, what has proved to be even more volatile is Communism, which has literally destroyed every economy it has been allowed to control, and has issued in piles of corpses orders of magnitude higher than created by any other single cause.

Yes, global economics are difficult. Not an amazing surprise. But Marx had no solutions to that problem, at least none that aren’t worse than the disease.
* **Alienation:** His concept of "alienation" describes how workers can feel disconnected from their labor, the products they create, and from each other. This idea is still used to discuss the psychological and social effects of modern work life, where people may feel powerless and detached from the purpose of their jobs.
Ah, this is where we get to Marx’s anthropological problems.

He didn’t understand people. He said they “self-actualize through praxis,” and that their ultimate nature is as a kind of homo faber or homo laborans. The failure to be placed in the right kind of labour, was, Marx thought, the source of his alienation and dehumanization.

Of course, he was quite wrong. Men do not gratuitously leap into labour of various kinds, even the kinds they may like. A labour is hard, and people tend to avoid it, especially when things can be had for free. And the kind of Communist vision for the welfare of a grand abstraction like “society” is not at all why people work: they work because they have to, to provide for themselves, their loved ones, and their families.

Labour doesn’t humanize people. People are born human, and do what humans do. And human nature isn’t at all what Marx thought it was.
### 2. Influence on Social Sciences and Humanities

Beyond economics, Marx's ideas have had a profound and lasting impact on multiple academic disciplines.
That Marx has had an impact is the very saddest thing we could say about Socialism. It’s completely ruined the academic world of the modern West, polluting it with absurd, non-disciplinary pseudo-studies, such as “Theory and Criticism,” or “Women’s/Queer/Gender/Educational Studies.” That the universities are today in a crisis of credibility with the public is largely due to the non-functional and ideologically-indoctrinatory state in which they presently are. People don’t want to pay for a non-education plus identity confusion plus debt plus no marketable skills. It’s not a good package for anybody’s children.
### 3. Impact on Political and Social Movements

While the revolutionary communism he envisioned has not been widely adopted in its pure form, his ideas continue to inspire a range of political and social movements.
I was wrong, perhaps. THIS is the most lamentable achievement of Socialism: the poisoning of everybody’s political projects with the toxic slop of Socialist idealizations. The “Woke” movement in politics, for those who know, is a thoroughly Neo-Marxist project: a late attempt to produce the destruction of the status quo and the necessary “revolution” that Marx predicted but did not get. There is now almost no polity that can legislate or make policies on purely pragmatic, or economic, or realistic grounds, because the public (what Lenin called “the useful idiots” — Marxists notoriously praise the public as “workers” but despise them as a mass), but in order to avoid agitating the prejudices (about sex, race, quotas, colonialism, etc.) of the voters, they find it expedient to include in every policy, every action, every decision, some sort of concession to virtue signalling that will prevent Neo-Marxists from raising a frenzy.

Good examples are the complete paralysis over immigration in Europe, or over child abuse in England, or over hiring of competent air pilots and of fair college admissions in America. The powers that be are unable to deal with these problems, out of sheer terror of being categorized in the public imagination as “phobic” or “oppressive” in one way or another.

Again, that’s due to Marx.
* **Social Justice Activism:** Concepts like class struggle and the analysis of systemic oppression have influenced movements advocating for racial, gender, and economic justice, providing a vocabulary and framework for critiquing deep-seated inequalities.
Absolutely this is Marx’s fault. Absolutely.

For example, all the founders of BLM openly declared themselves as “trained Marxists.” Most of the “useful idiots” they mobilized, though, had little awareness of that: they thought it was about getting them some kind of fairness, or advocating for a dead fentanyl user they had elevated to godhood. It wasn’t. It was about advancing the Marxist agenda. They just weren’t being told.

But ask yourself: in which of the neighbourhoods in which the Neo-Marxists riots were organized did things become better afterward? Which poor, black folks found more grocery stores in their area afterward, or had better access to public services, or saw any part of the billions of dollars that were flushed into that organization? And the answer, you know: zero. It was never about “justice” at all: it was about the “social” bit.

What’s the difference, you may ask? Good question. Real “justice” is simple to define: everybody gets exactly what they deserve. But “social justice” is not that. “Social justice” means you have to give me control of your society, on the promise that I will make changes that will create “just” conditions for you, one day, if you trust me, and if we destroy the entire cultural inheritance upon which we both presently stand (we cannot “collude” with or “perpetuate” an “oppressive system,” you see), and if you let me reconstruct your society as my utopian project.

In other words, yes, “social justice” is Marxist to the core. And wide open to the uses of power-hungry ideologues who want to use it to seize control and remake society in the way they’d like. This, again, is from the legacy of Marx.

Which is why I think Marx deserves serious consideration as the most wicked man who has ever lived. If we judge by the number of people his followers have killed, the number of places they have destroyed, the number of economies they’ve crashed, the number of institutions they have completely ruined, and the sheer amount of human misery proceeding from that one source, we’d have to say that Marx is peerless. Nobody’s done so much evil.

Thanks for your list. I imagine you probably just clipped it from somewhere, but it provides a fine opportunity to fill out the record. I only wish more people knew this stuff.
Walker
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Re: Christianity

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:24 pm
- Knowing is a step in the right direction.
- So are traffic laws that are ignored by “expert” drivers. (most everyone in their own estimation)

- Knowing by itself is like a Catholic who advocates abortion, or shrugs when reminded that skipping mass is a mortal sin.

- Perhaps a lot of knowing is required to tip the scales away from Marxism. It's reasonable to suspect that non-education and knowing things that are not true, then clinging to and defending that untrue knowing that has worked in life so far, accounts for the sudden popularity of Marxist fantasies.

*

The new Turing Test for AI to master.
Navigate without hitting anything or anyone, trial and error cybernetics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uf2QNtYpII
Last edited by Walker on Mon Jul 21, 2025 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

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That Marx has had an impact is the very saddest thing we could say about Socialism. It’s completely ruined the academic world of the modern West, polluting it with absurd, non-disciplinary pseudo-studies, such as “Theory and Criticism,” or Women’s Queer Gender Educational Studies. That the universities are today in a crisis of credibility with the public is largely due to the non-functional and ideologically-indoctrinatory state in which they presently are. People don’t want to pay for a non-education plus identity confusion plus debt plus no marketable skills. It’s not a good package for anybody’s children.
It is interesting to muse over this peculiar topic. That is, the extremely destructive and undermining aspect of this introversion of post-Marxian activism that “infected” a couple of generations. I must admit that Robert Bork’s book “Slouching Toward Gomorrah” opened my eyes to this immensely destructive movement.

It is a peculiar issue: that those intellectuals and activists of the Sixties, who genuinely felt a need to revitalize man and humanistic concerns, could at the same time bring about destruction of values on so many levels. That is the thrust of Bork’s essay and he does a pretty thorough job of it. But then one must consider the social and political faction he was associated with: Reagan et al. And there, obviously, arose The Culture Wars in America that are still raging in confusing ways.

Jumping into some interpretation: It seems like if the genuine Marxists could not have their way in a structural and substantial restructuring of society, that what tool they could avail themselves of was ressentiment.

But here I would mention that, broadly I think, no one really feels that they have much power to influence structural affairs. We do “sit idly by” as vast power-machinations occur all around us. This leads me to the sense that, faced with such a situation, men feel that their power to influence structural affairs”the world” is null. And what happens as a result? They have no option but to turn inward. Being thwarted in the outer sphere leaves only the inner sphere. But since being thwarted produces pathology, the inner turn is not necessarily healthy. And then, like unsupervised children, they get up to all sorts of mischief, but it is mischief where, at least, they feel they have (or are allowed or can claim) some personal power.

Immanuel desires to harshly critique this “movement” which, to abbreviate it, can be referred to as the intellectual culture of critique. Critique, though, is both “divine” and “devilish”.

An outline of a critique of those critical theories: a way of seeing, a praxis, a stance.
MikeNovack
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Re: Christianity

Post by MikeNovack »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:24 pm But when the alleged “workers’ revolutions” came about, it was in two places about which Marx had not predicted anything, and in contradiction to his theory of dialectical progress. It happened first in the feudal-monarchial Russia, and then in the peasant-rich land of China, and without any “Capitalist” phase at all. In Germany, which was developed, it was National Socialism that emerged, not International Socialism (Communism).
Please, let's take this discussion out of "Christianity". Marxism should be its own topic I suspect that you do not know "left history" as well as you think you do. There WAS a short lived communist uprising in Germany 1919 -- The Spartacist League under Rosa Luxumberg and Karl Liebknecht (it failed and they were killed). At roughly the same time was a short lived communist government in Hungary under Bela Kun (he escaped to Russia, killed in the 30's for being "Trotskyist")

Even though common among the "capitalists" to associate that with free markets, that's a false association. A decentralized communism could also be free market. Society organized into communes, internally communist, but market relationships between them (well OK, relations between adjacent communes might be more neighborly),

Here (US) I'd argue that there had to be an ideology for capitalism (capital operated separately from its owners) earlier than mid 19th Century or else the Marshall Court would not have ruled the way that it did in 1819. It COULD have simply said that while New Hampshire might be able to seize the physical property of Dartmouth by eminent domain, it could not seize the personality of this self governing body. Instead the ruling was made general for all corporations. Remember, 18th Century and earlier, corporations existed only by being granted special ad hoc charters.

As to whether socialism/communism has to be international, again its own topic.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:24 pm Thanks for your list. I imagine you probably just clipped it from somewhere, but it provides a fine opportunity to fill out the record. I only wish more people knew this stuff.
If I am not mistaken it was a result of an AI program called "Gemini" that assembled the list.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Walker wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 2:29 pm Perhaps a lot of knowing is required to tip the scales away from Marxism. It's reasonable to suspect that non-education and knowing things that are not true, then clinging to and defending that untrue knowing that has worked in life so far, accounts for the sudden popularity of Marxist fantasies.
I’ve got to say, I don’t think that’s quite it, W. It’s in the ballpark, maybe, but not on the bases.

I think that there’s a simple, basic equation at work. It’s that if one removes all question of God from one’s calculations, it becomes reasonable to think that everything is up to human decision, human political plans, and human responsibility. “If it’s be be, it’s up to me,” is the thought.

But here’s the problem: “me” is rather small. Not only small, but temporal, limited by time and space. “Me” cannot get much done, and “me” will probably die before any big changes happen in the world.

But maybe “me” is also somebody who wants justice. Maybe “me” wants nicer living conditions, particularly in not having to struggle tooth-and-claw against the world, or work all the time. Maybe “me” hopes the future could be prepared for my kids, if not for me. Maybe “me” isn’t even being selfish about all that.

But “me” no can do.

So what can “me” do? “Me” must become “we.” And lots of “we.” And maybe “we” can get some better world to happen, if “we” all get together.

So collectivism becomes automatically attractive. It even seems moral, and necessary, and the only right way of thinking for a caring person. Because if it’s just little “me,” all my aspirations are doomed: but if I can join a great “we,” then maybe…not certainly, of course…but maybe…some better future can be created.

But, of course, so far the “we” could be pulled together in many ways: not just Socialism or Communism, but Nazism, or totalitarianism, or monarchy, or any other form of politics. Nothing about joining a “we” specifies that the “we” is egalitarian. Maybe it’s elitist, in some form.

But my framework of thought is contrary to that. My background is of liberal democracy, not totalitarianism, maybe. So “me” opts for the ideology that promises “equality” or “equity.” And what does that lead to? Something Socialist.

But here’s where I went wrong. I went wrong at imagining God was dead. That’s the root. That’s when I got orphaned, got scared, and then found the Socialist types of options attractive to me. “Me” had to trust all kinds of people to join and “do the right things.” And since they seemed to me, after that, to be the only reasonable ones, “me” became angry when some people failed to catch my vision, or to join my cause. What sorts of evil people are these, “me” reasoned, since they resist utopia? They must be very wicked — Marx does not even count them as genuinely human; only Socialists are “humanized.” So “me" felt free to silence, harass, deprive, cajole, bludgeon, rob, torture, incarcerate, then kill them. After all, “me” did it for the good of the human race, and for heaven on earth. These were, after all, only very bad, deluded, nasty people, who were impeding “progress,” and “progress” must not be stopped…for the good of us all.

And there we are. Or there “me” is. A Socialist.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

MikeNovack wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 3:10 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:24 pm But when the alleged “workers’ revolutions” came about, it was in two places about which Marx had not predicted anything, and in contradiction to his theory of dialectical progress. It happened first in the feudal-monarchial Russia, and then in the peasant-rich land of China, and without any “Capitalist” phase at all. In Germany, which was developed, it was National Socialism that emerged, not International Socialism (Communism).
Please, let's take this discussion out of "Christianity". Marxism should be its own topic
I’d love to. But Marx won’t let me. He made Christianity his topic #1.
Here (US) I'd argue that there had to be an ideology for capitalism (capital operated separately from its owners) earlier than mid 19th Century or else the Marshall Court would not have ruled the way that it did in 1819. It COULD have simply said that while New Hampshire might be able to seize the physical property of Dartmouth by eminent domain, it could not seize the personality of this self governing body. Instead the ruling was made general for all corporations. Remember, 18th Century and earlier, corporations existed only by being granted special ad hoc charters.
Corporations are, of course, a human invention, and thus, more a concept than a reality. To attribute rights to a mere concept we have made up is sketchy business, alright. But property rights for persons…that’s from John Locke. And it’s universal.
As to whether socialism/communism has to be international, again its own topic.
Yes, but it really has to be international. It cannot be long-term successful any other way. It really needs to be global, and no less than that, if it’s going to have any prospect of its project surviving — and, I think, not even then will it survive.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 3:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:24 pm Thanks for your list. I imagine you probably just clipped it from somewhere, but it provides a fine opportunity to fill out the record. I only wish more people knew this stuff.
If I am not mistaken it was a result of an AI program called "Gemini" that assembled the list.
Good catch. It certainly illustrates how poor the answers from AI can be.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:34 am Marx and Jesus have one standout feature in common. The former has become the most used individual since Jesus to justify anyone's agenda especially as it relates to power.
Actually, the opposite is decidedly true. Many have abused His name, or attributed to Him doctrines He never preached. But whenever people have followed Christ, the very best of humanity has flourished. By contrast, there is almost no foulness or violence done by Communist regimes that found even the least resistance in the writings of Karl Marx. Indeed, Marx himself insisted that violence was essential, because history is a wasteful process, and non-Socialists aren’t genuinely human anyway.

So, for example:

Jesus: “Love your enemies, and do good to those who spitefully use you.”

Marx: “...Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.…They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions."

And again:...“there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.”

Same thing? Not even close.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 9:01 am For an exposition of Christian Marxism see Liberation theology, or William Blake.
Well, neither is Christian, unfortunately, despite having appropriated the label.

Your research will show you that Blake was a Swedenborgian. You won’t now know what that is, I expect: hardly anybody does. But Blake sure knew.
https://coolwisdombooks.com/william-bla ... ry-london/
Archbishop Oscar Romero is closely associated with liberation theology, a theological movement that interprets the Christian gospel through the experience of the poor and oppressed. He became a powerful voice for social justice in El Salvador, speaking out against human rights abuses and advocating for the poor, which ultimately led to his assassination.
I also know Romero. And if a belief were made true by the fact that a man was killed for it, John Lennon would not have had to “imagine” his utopia, and Adolf Hitler would have been sainted by now.

But look at the particulars: Liberation Theology is all “liberation” (in the Marxist mode) and no “theology.” It cannot be squared with the teaching of the one who declared flatly, “My kingdom is not of this world,” among other things. It doesn’t look like political liberation was much on His mind, however much it was on Romero’s.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:20 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:34 am Marx and Jesus have one standout feature in common. The former has become the most used individual since Jesus to justify anyone's agenda especially as it relates to power.
Actually, the opposite is decidedly true. Many have abused His name, or attributed to Him doctrines He never preached. But whenever people have followed Christ, the very best of humanity has flourished.
A few observations that must follow from this. First, it is likely true that in a small community that sincerely practices Christian-centered ethics, that the better aspects of humankind and humanness have resulted. However, if that is so, this would amount to small sects, small communities, even monastic-like communities that are fundamentally separated from “the world”.

It is quite plain and self-evident that the greater the participation in the world — by communities, businesses, corporations — the greater it becomes necessary to sacrifice those values and ethics.

Christian ethics are fundamentally contrary to the ways of nature. In fact those values are anti-nature. They are also maladaptive in an evolutionary sense. For this reason those values — the entire idea of Christian idealism — is impracticable at scale.

Therefore to practice the “true Christian” religiousness requires a renunciation that few are capable of (or desire) and which for many is impossible because we live in systems built upon natural facts, natural rules, and of profound complicity.

Ownership interest in “the world” is non-compatible with the saintly life …
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:58 pm But look at the particulars: Liberation Theology is all “liberation” (in the Marxist mode) and no “theology.” It cannot be squared with the teaching of the one who declared flatly, “My kingdom is not of this world,” among other things. It doesn’t look like political liberation was much on His mind, however much it was on Romero’s.
And here you express a set of ideological formulations. When your formulations are exposed and examined, the problematical and impracticable aspect of your Christian interpretation will become evident.

Prophetic (Hebrew) imperatives read like tracts from Teología de Liberación tracts! Amos, Hosea, etc.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 6:43 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:20 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:34 am Marx and Jesus have one standout feature in common. The former has become the most used individual since Jesus to justify anyone's agenda especially as it relates to power.
Actually, the opposite is decidedly true. Many have abused His name, or attributed to Him doctrines He never preached. But whenever people have followed Christ, the very best of humanity has flourished.
A few observations that must follow from this. First, it is likely true that in a small community that sincerely practices Christian-centered ethics, that the better aspects of humankind and humanness have resulted. However, if that is so, this would amount to small sects, small communities, even monastic-like communities that are fundamentally separated from “the world”.
Again, the opposite is true. The effects of Christianity on a wide variety of social concerns is undeniable: from medicine, to education, to the universities, to worldwide charity, to prison reform, to substance-addiction relief, anti-slavery initiatives and the treatment of the mentally ill, and to science itself, among many, many other concerns. That’s not to say nobody ever made mistakes or did the wrong thing: that’s human nature, and we all have it. But on a broad and global scale, the facts are clear: just as Communism has proved itself the most fatal creed in history, Christianity has proved the most beneficial.
It is quite plain and self-evident that the greater the participation in the world — by communities, businesses, corporations — the greater it becomes necessary to sacrifice those values and ethics.
Not “necessary.” Only “tempting,” perhaps.

But take something even as allegedly-venial as business. Doing business depends on contracts. If they aren’t fulfilled — if suppliers don’t deliver, recipients don’t pay their bills, providers cut corners, and so on — then it’s not possible to make a business plan: one never knows what one will or won’t be able to do, or what moneys one can expect to receive or expect never to see again. In other words, business depends on honesty, promise-keeping, and faithfulness…core Christian values.
Christian ethics are fundamentally contrary to the ways of nature.
Nope. Sorry. Not even close. They’re close to our best nature, and antithetical to our worst.
Ownership interest in “the world” is non-compatible with the saintly life …
That’s the ascetic error, sometimes also called the Gnostic heresy. Again, Genesis 1 should have cured anybody of that delusion.
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