Christianity

[iambiguous]

"Not only does IC refuse to explore this with me"

This simply cannot be. You and Mannie have been exploring this with each other for so long that you're like a veritable Lewis and Clark. Y'all have been arguing the same stuff for so many years now that your posts can be carbon dated. Y'all have gone 'round and 'round so many times that you're like a RATT greatest hit.

So, you must be a:

A) knucklehead
B) sadist who enjoys humiliating posters in front of a handful of regulars at a philosophy forum.
C) gpt-4 biggs system.

On the contrary, over and again I have asked IC to explore those videos with me. And over and again he has refused to.

Yeah, I know there are those here who take great pride in possessing both the intellectual honesty and integrity in rejecting God and religion. I used to be one of them myself for years and years.

I'm just not anymore.

I still do not believe in either God or religion, but given the truly staggering mystery embedded in the existence of the universe itself...

https://youtu.be/1oAbeFW5OyM?si=QAHMSkgIKHKcNkUJ   webb telescope findings
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... 191c&ei=30    massive black holes colliding
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... 191c&ei=74  the vast universe
https://youtu.be/3mnSDifDSxQ?si=sSEv3f4NKxjE7d34  massive star.

...there's no way the existence of a God, the God here can be defined or deduced out of existence. Well, aside from up in the spiritual and philosophical clouds.

Unless, perhaps, it can?


Bottom line [mine]...

Unlike any number of religionists among us who fall back on leaps of faith or wagers or Scripture, IC [along with WLC and his RF clique/claque] keep insisting both substantive and substantial evidence is there. They are able to convince themselves the Christian God resides in Heaven the way others are able to be convinced of the existence of the Pope in the Vatican.


And in asking "where's the beef?" of those of Immanuel Can''s ilk here, who knows, maybe there actually is a ton of beef out there pertaining to one or another God.

Link me to it by all means, I tell them.

[Belinda]

To put it crudely 'To know all is to forgive all.' It's not expected of the human to know all, but is expected of the human to know that if you were to know all the circumstances (and I mean all) then you would forgive the sinner.

That hardly follows, B.

You’ve forgotten the question of justice. But let’s do a thought experiment.

Go to the six million people murdered by Hitler. Tell them that “if they were to know all his circumstances,” they would forgive him. So he’s not to be judged for his six million murders, or Stalin for his twenty-some million, or Mao for his 42 million, because people just didn’t “understand their circumstances.”

That’s what your claim would imply. How does that thought experiment strike you?

Islam is perhaps more straightforward and less complicated in its history of social control.
Before Muhammad the warring of the tribes of Arabia was bad for trade and mutual prosperity. The tribes' system of justice was based on a species of vendetta, not to put too fine a point on it. Islam successfully unified the Arabian tribes.
Islam did not and does not eschew punishment for recognisable crimes and Shariah justice is a big improvement on 'vendetta'.

Immanuel the punitive version of God is too close for safety to vendetta style justice, and is retrograde.

[Immanuel Can]

To put it crudely 'To know all is to forgive all.' It's not expected of the human to know all, but is expected of the human to know that if you were to know all the circumstances (and I mean all) then you would forgive the sinner.

That hardly follows, B.

You’ve forgotten the question of justice. But let’s do a thought experiment.

Go to the six million people murdered by Hitler. Tell them that “if they were to know all his circumstances,” they would forgive him. So he’s not to be judged for his six million murders, or Stalin for his twenty-some million, or Mao for his 42 million, because people just didn’t “understand their circumstances.”

That’s what your claim would imply. How does that thought experiment strike you?

Immanuel the punitive version of God is too close for safety to vendetta style justice, and is retrograde.

I never mentioned any idea of “punishment” or “vendetta,” B. the question is much simpler: do you believe justice is an important value, or not?

[Immanuel Can]

"Not only does IC refuse to explore this with me"

This simply cannot be. You and Mannie have been exploring this with each other for so long that you're like a veritable Lewis and Clark. Y'all have been arguing the same stuff for so many years now that your posts can be carbon dated. Y'all have gone 'round and 'round so many times that you're like a RATT greatest hit.

So, you must be a:

A) knucklehead
B) sadist who enjoys humiliating posters in front of a handful of regulars at a philosophy forum.
C) gpt-4 biggs system.

On the contrary, over and again I have asked IC to explore those videos with me. And over and again he has refused to.

You have a brain. Watch the videos. Make up your own mind. To argue with you would bore me to death, with your petty cavilling and posturing; and I’m not interested giving you the opportunity to bore me, when I know you’re quite capable of thinking it through for yourself.

If you can’t understand something so direct and straightforward, and can’t make you own assessment, I can’t help you either.

You can take that as my permanent answer. It won’t change.

[Alexis Jacobi]

“We can share the wonen, we can share the wine …”

I never mentioned any idea of “punishment” or “vendetta,” B. the question is much simpler: do you believe justice is an important value, or not?

I have been thinking about the essential, the fundamental Christian conflict: it resides in the fact that God has created a world, our world, that operates by way of immutable natural laws that are “terrible” in their nature. I.e. ecological systems where creatures feed on creatures. A terrible cacophony of howls of pain as the divine-terraqueous struggle plays out eternally. The Earth cannot ever change and become anti-Earthly. It can do nought but continue in its decreed course.

What then is Justice in that world?

Think about it: man’s imposition of Justice on the world could be pictured like Bolívar’s metaphor of ruling the unruly South Americans: its an effort like “ploughing the ocean”.

I only want to stress that when you really think about it, the moral imperative inherent in Christian ethics, is an attempt to “rewrite Nature”. Everything in man that is nature-like is pictured as anti-God. To become godly one must become counter-natural — anti-natural in fact.

There is no “justice” in Nature. There is really only a rather elegant, but utterly indifferent, transfer of energetic property from one being to another. It is not a Divine Symphony though, and it is not a “pretty picture”, and rather when it is “seen” it results in repugnance. In rejection. It also produces, I think, an insurmountable conflict in a man’s soul.

The elevated, idealistic outcome of the internalization of Christian ethics is a man who “cannot live here anymore”. The Earth is no friend to that man. Yet he is utterly dependent of its cruel, inevitable processes.

I do not mean to propose, necessarily, that “we” should cease acting “against Nature” in our social relations. I suppose that I am more interested in clarifying what in reality the Christian Ethic actually is.

[Alexis Jacobi]

We used to play for silver, now we play for life; And one's for sport and one's for blood at the point of a knife. And now the die is shaken, now the die must fall. There ain't a winner in the game, he don't go home with all. Not with all …

[Immanuel Can]

“We can share the wonen, we can share the wine …”

I never mentioned any idea of “punishment” or “vendetta,” B. the question is much simpler: do you believe justice is an important value, or not?

I have been thinking about the essential, the fundamental Christian conflict: it resides in the fact that God has created a world, our world, that operates by way of immutable natural laws that are “terrible” in their nature. I.e. ecological systems where creatures feed on creatures. .

See…this is what I mean about you knowing almost nothing about what Christians actually think or say, but still making wild, confident claims about what it is. Christians do not believe God created the world with the laws it now exhibits — they’re not uniformitarians, in other words. Genesis chapter 1, if you had read it, would tell you that when God created the world, it was good, there was no predation (Gen.1:30-31) and thus, death did not enter it.

How could you know anything about Christianity, and forget everything you read about the very first book in the entire Bible, the very first chapter, Genesis chapter 1?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Here is what my answer is, Immanuel:

I certainly know that, following the Genesis story, that it is believed that the world, then, operated under different laws. And I also know that traditional Christians believe that as a consequence of The Fall not only was man’s destiny screwed up, but the entire Creation fell. And the world, consequently, became the place it now is.

Now, the really curious thing is that you believe this is a factual story — it must be a scientific fact — about how the natural world that surround us came to be as it is.

That a wolf chases and devours a rabbit is just one result of our First Parent’s disobedience.

How is it that you do not think I know this?!

We used to play for silver, now we play for life; And one's for sport and one's for blood at the point of a knife. And now the die is shaken, now the die must fall. There ain't a winner in the game, he don't go home with all. Not with all …

Instruct me, for thou knows: how to become free!

[Belinda]

That hardly follows, B.

You’ve forgotten the question of justice. But let’s do a thought experiment.

Go to the six million people murdered by Hitler. Tell them that “if they were to know all his circumstances,” they would forgive him. So he’s not to be judged for his six million murders, or Stalin for his twenty-some million, or Mao for his 42 million, because people just didn’t “understand their circumstances.”

That’s what your claim would imply. How does that thought experiment strike you?

Immanuel the punitive version of God is too close for safety to vendetta style justice, and is retrograde.

I never mentioned any idea of “punishment” or “vendetta,” B. the question is much simpler: do you believe justice is an important value, or not?

Your question is too vague. I have tried to explain that the administration of justice takes different forms. Eg. In Arabia before and after Muhammad. The administration of justice is always valuable to the people who rule over others.
If you prefer to regard justice as eternal Platonic Form then you need to say so and I will respond.

[iambiguous]

On the contrary, over and again I have asked IC to explore those videos with me. And over and again he has refused to.

Yeah, I know there are those here who take great pride in possessing both the intellectual honesty and integrity in rejecting God and religion. I used to be one of them myself for years and years.

I'm just not anymore.

I still do not believe in either God or religion, but given the truly staggering mystery embedded in the existence of the universe itself...

https://youtu.be/1oAbeFW5OyM?si=QAHMSkgIKHKcNkUJ   webb telescope findings
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... 191c&ei=30    massive black holes colliding
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... 191c&ei=74  the vast universe
https://youtu.be/3mnSDifDSxQ?si=sSEv3f4NKxjE7d34  massive star.

...there's no way the existence of a God, the God here can be defined or deduced out of existence. Well, aside from up in the spiritual and philosophical clouds.

Unless, perhaps, it can?

Bottom line [mine]...

Unlike any number of religionists among us who fall back on leaps of faith or wagers or Scripture, IC [along with WLC and his RF clique/claque] keep insisting both substantive and substantial evidence is there. They are able to convince themselves the Christian God resides in Heaven the way others are able to be convinced of the existence of the Pope in the Vatican.

And in asking "where's the beef?" of those of Immanuel Can''s ilk here, who knows, maybe there actually is a ton of beef out there pertaining to one or another God.

Link me to it by all means, I tell them.

You have a brain.  Watch the videos. Make up your own mind.  To argue with you would bore me to death, with your petty cavilling and posturing; and I’m not interested giving you the opportunity to bore me, when I know you’re quite capable of thinking it through for yourself.

God [if there is one] to Immanuel Can:
Shameless! Absolutely shameless!!



Over and again: forget about me.

On the other hand, there must be those here who would truly welcome substantive evidence for the existence of the Christian God in Heaven...as it is available for those who are able to demonstrate the existence of the Pope in the Vatican. And all you have to do is note the video segments that most convinced you.

If you can’t understand something so direct and straightforward, and can’t make you own assessment, I can’t help you either.

Which is exactly what I did in assessing the videos one by one. Of course, I may well be assessing them incorrectly. 

Unless, perhaps, you are?

[Immanuel Can]

Immanuel the punitive version of God is too close for safety to vendetta style justice, and is retrograde.

I never mentioned any idea of “punishment” or “vendetta,” B. the question is much simpler: do you believe justice is an important value, or not?

Your question is too vague. I have tried to explain that the administration of justice takes different forms.

I’m not asking you to specify form. I’m just asking if there’s any circumstance at all under which you consider justice an important value. It’s a yes or no, really. You don’t have to explain further.

[Immanuel Can]

God [if there is one] to Immanuel Can:
Shameless! Absolutely shameless!!

Oh. So now you’re the Supreme Being, as well?

Over and again: forget about me.

Most gladly.

[iambiguous]

God [if there is one] to Immanuel Can:
Shameless! Absolutely shameless!!

Oh. So now you’re the Supreme Being, as well?

Over and again: forget about me.

Most gladly.

What is it about "if there is one", that goes in one ear and out the other?

Click, of course.

And all I can do [here] is imagine how others would react to me if I argued in 17 YouTube videos that I had substantial scientific and historical and rational evidence that we live in a No God universe.

I suspect you'd be hounding me over and again with your own rendition of "where's the beef, Mr. Atheist?!"

[Immanuel Can]

God [if there is one] to Immanuel Can:
Shameless! Absolutely shameless!!

Oh. So now you’re the Supreme Being, as well?

Over and again: forget about me.

Most gladly.

What is it about "if there is one", that goes in one ear and out the other?

So now you’re not only trying to put words in the mouth of the Supreme Being…you’re doing it for a being you don’t even know exists?

And you think that’s better?

[Gary Childress]

Here is what my answer is, Immanuel:

I certainly know that, following the Genesis story, that it is believed that the world, then, operated under different laws. And I also know that traditional Christians believe that as a consequence of The Fall not only was man’s destiny screwed up, but the entire Creation fell. And the world, consequently, became the place it now is.

Now, the really curious thing is that you believe this is a factual story — it must be a scientific fact — about how the natural world that surround us came to be as it is.

That a wolf chases and devours a rabbit is just one result of our First Parent’s disobedience.

How is it that you do not think I know this?!

We used to play for silver, now we play for life; And one's for sport and one's for blood at the point of a knife. And now the die is shaken, now the die must fall. There ain't a winner in the game, he don't go home with all. Not with all …

Instruct me, for thou knows: how to become free!

God punishes us all for the mistake of 2 people. What a lovely God. Then floods the world killing almost everyone. Tells his chosen people to commit genocide. I'm sure it's all factual.