What is obscene ?

[popeye1945]

Obscenity causes a biological reaction, e.g., revulsion to the extent of uncontrollable vomiting.

An example from art is when the droogs turned cops catch Alex and beat him up after his treatment (Clockwork Orange). An example in life is seeing a human torn to pieces (e.g., auto accident).

For a drunk, an example is a moment of clarity when the personal disaster (obscenity) of life is suddenly seen, and felt in the gut.


Explanations follow the biological reaction.

Interesting, and yes, you're right, there is a biological reaction, but I don't think it is with all cases of the obscene. For example, I find what women wear on the beach presently to be obscene and disrespectful. Obviously, not everyone shares in the belief, more of an intellectual response, but perhaps there are some biological things happening as well. Your point is well taken!

[Alexiev]

Obscenity causes a biological reaction, e.g., revulsion to the extent of uncontrollable vomiting.

An example from art is when the droogs turned cops catch Alex and beat him up after his treatment (Clockwork Orange). An example in life is seeing a human torn to pieces (e.g., auto accident).

For a drunk, an example is a moment of clarity when the personal disaster (obscenity) of life is suddenly seen, and felt in the gut.


Explanations follow the biological reaction.

Interesting, and yes, you're right, there is a biological reaction, but I don't think it is with all cases of the obscene. For example, I find what women wear on the beach presently to be obscene and disrespectful. Obviously, not everyone shares in the belief, more of an intellectual response, but perhaps there are some biological things happening as well. Your point is well taken!

Obscenity may cause a biological reaction. But that’s not what it is. Obscenity is culturally constituted. Topless women in Tahiti (maybe in the past) are not obscene, but (acc. popeye, not me) women in bikinis are.

The Roman's flocked to the Colesium; we find gladiators obscene. It is true that we internalize cultural norms, and might be sickened by public beheading. But the biological reaction is not "natural" -' it is learned.

[Walker]

Not completely cultural.

Obscenity as a principle reveals inherent commonalities shared by specific instances of obscenity that are culturally different.

One aspect of obscenity is a juxtaposition of reality that reveals assumed permanence is actually temporary. This happens when witnessing body parts rearranged into new positions after an auto accident. It’s caused by inherent sensitivity that becomes dulled through repetition. Repetition of the same experience after the first time isn’t as shocking to notions of what should be.

Another aspect of obscenity as a principle is an assault upon empathy. In the movie Clockwork Orange, the droogs holding Alex’s head underwater, while clubbing his elbow and knee joints with police batons, while Alex is vomiting underwater because he is incapacitated by the thought of fighting back, is a direct assault upon the empathy of the viewer who gets to share the experience as more than a thought or inference. Because of the slow motion of the scene, and the glee of the droogs, a viewer has time to somewhat feel the obscene torture. Torture is obscene, although the details of torture may vary by culture.

Folks get used to the shape of the elephant they know, and if moved from the old familiar, reachable portions that they thought was elephant permanence (reality), that former portion of the elephant disappears from direct awareness, and its existence apart from awareness becomes merely an inference existing in malleable memory, and in reasoning based on what’s been experienced of causation in the past.

If nekked women on the beach are considered obscene, it’s because the assumed permanence of clothing that covers the unmentionables has been revealed to be in fact transitory, and the offended one has been involuntarily shifted to a new portion of the elephant (that would look silly if covered by a hippo-sized bikini). The intellect knows that clothing is not permanent, but the experience of nekked women where culturally inappropriate causes a non-intellectual (inherent) reaction ... not because they are nekked, but because the expectation of clothing has been assaulted through the senses.

If one needs to stay on such an obscene beach, perhaps through coercion, continued exposure to the obscene will dull sensibilities, and obscenity that isn’t sensed isn’t obscene … although permanence interrupted is a non-cultural commonality of biologically experienced obscenity.

Which isn't to say that all cross-cultural commonalities are obscene.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Poverty.

[Walker]

Poverty.

Does it dull or sharpen sensibilities?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Poverty.

Does it dull or sharpen sensibilities?

Both. In victims and beholders.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Poverty.

Does it dull or sharpen sensibilities?

Both. In victims and beholders.

The poor can be unbelievably kind and generous, but generally https://sammlung.staedelmuseum.de/en/wo ... f-the-wind. Romantic love certainly does.

Beholders are usually left with helpless privilege, which hardens.

Vomiting is best described as a physical reaction.

[Alexiev]

Poverty.

I do not consider Francis of Assisi obscene (although you might, given your hostility to Christianity).

[Alexiev]

Not completely cultural.

Obscenity as a principle reveals inherent commonalities shared by specific instances of obscenity that are culturally different.

......

Which isn't to say that all cross-cultural commonalities are obscene.

Nature vs. nurture questions are generally unanswerable. Obscenity, however, seems more culturally constituted than many other nature vs. nurture issues. Also, the first definition of "obscene is: "offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency." "Accepted standards" are culturally constituted.

[Alexiev]

Not completely cultural.

Obscenity as a principle reveals inherent commonalities shared by specific instances of obscenity that are culturally different.

......

Which isn't to say that all cross-cultural commonalities are obscene.

Nature vs. nurture questions are generally unanswerable. Obscenity, however, seems more culturally constituted than many other nature vs. nurture issues. Also, the first definition of "obscene is: "offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency." "Accepted standards" are culturally constituted.

[Dubious]

There couldn't be a better example than the overall history of the human race!

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Poverty.

I do not consider Francis of Assisi obscene (although you might, given your hostility to Christianity).

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Alexiev]

Poverty.

I do not consider Francis of Assisi obscene (although you might, given your hostility to Christianity).

Have you stopped beating your wife?

I'm not married. My comment was legitimate. Perhaps you remember this anecdote about Diogenes, the great Greek Cynic. By flattery, the hedonistic philosophy Aristippus had won a comfortable living at the court of Dionysus, the tyrant of Syracuse. Observing Diogenes preparing a simple meal of lentils, Aristrippus said, "If you would learn to flatter Dionysus, you wouldn't have to live in a barrel and eat nothing but lentils.

Diogenes replied, "And if you would learn to live in a barrel and eat nothing but lentils, you wouldn't have to flatter Dionysus."

[Walker]

Not completely cultural.

Obscenity as a principle reveals inherent commonalities shared by specific instances of obscenity that are culturally different.

......

Which isn't to say that all cross-cultural commonalities are obscene.

Nature vs. nurture questions are generally unanswerable. Obscenity, however, seems more culturally constituted than many other nature vs. nurture issues. Also, the first definition of "obscene is: "offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency." "Accepted standards" are culturally constituted.

Yes, I get that.

However, not all instances of obscenity are culturally dependent. For instance, "startled" is a non-cultural, physical reaction ... and obscenity can also be a non-cultural, physical reaction because it startles expectations, such as in the examples provided. Expressions of obscenity may differ culturally, but the many leaves of obscenities that are cultural expressions share a common root and startled fruit.

This doesn't mean that all startles are obscene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70pqdZVR5tk

(although adults getting a big kick out of terrifying babies is obscene ... perhaps culturally)

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I do not consider Francis of Assisi obscene (although you might, given your hostility to Christianity).

Have you stopped beating your wife?

I'm not married. My comment was legitimate. Perhaps you remember this anecdote about Diogenes, the great Greek Cynic. By flattery, the hedonistic philosophy Aristippus had won a comfortable living at the court of Dionysus, the tyrant of Syracuse. Observing Diogenes preparing a simple meal of lentils, Aristrippus said, "If you would learn to flatter Dionysus, you wouldn't have to live in a barrel and eat nothing but lentils.

Diogenes replied, "And if you would learn to live in a barrel and eat nothing but lentils, you wouldn't have to flatter Dionysus."

Your comments were non sequitur.