theodicy

[MikeNovack]

You do know that one entire book of the Bible is devoted to this topic.

Now Job was written late, already the influence of Hellenism. In other words, try to associate the three "consolers" with three schools of Greek philosophy (which is the Stoic?), etc. The answer from the whirlwind is God the creator of the natural world, and the point expressed is it meaningful to talk about good and evil with regard to the natural world? After all, if those hungry lion cubs are to be fed, some critter must be killed and ripped apart (and the ravens are fed from the scraps).

Also to be considered, the myth of the Garden, consideration of what Gan Eden IS. For Jews, not a myth about the origin of sin but the origin of becoming human and being able to judge things as good or evil.

[Alexiev]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.

[Philip Goff] addresses the difficulty often invoked by infidels such as myself “of reconciling a loving all powerful God with the terrible suffering we see in the world.” The argument is that if God truly is both omnibenevolent and omnipotent – ideas central to Judeo-Christian belief – then he would not wish, nor indeed allow, that there should be suffering in the universe. So why is there so much suffering?

Of course, for any number of religious denominations, the answer revolves around God's mysterious ways. After all, invoking that allows them to sustain the comfort and the consolation that comes with believing they have access to moral commandments here and now and immortality and salvation there and then.

In fact, as I often note, I'd believe in them again if I could.

Indeed, the scale, intensity, ubiquity, and irremediability of that suffering is easy to under-imagine unless one is in the grip of it. But the constant possibility of suffering is built into our organic nature.

On the other hand, as the Camp Mystic tragedy revealed to us yet again, even in the grip of it what else is there?

"Camp Mystic, a girls' Christian summer camp in Texas, has a strong connection to faith, with many associated with the camp expressing that they feel God's presence there and relying on their faith to cope with the recent devastating floods. The tragedy has led to an outpouring of faith-based support and reflection on the role of spirituality in times of crisis." AI

Imagine if one of the young girls who died was your own daughter or sister or best friend. Without one or another spiritual denouement, you'd have to live with the "brute facticity" of a No God world.

Then this part:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... _pandemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_records
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

Our vulnerability extends from external catastrophes, such as earthquakes, floods, and fires, reaching down to our individual bodies with their many ways of going off course, and, as a result, imposing pain as the price of continuing existence. Moreover, the evolutionary mechanism the non-survival of the less-than-fit that has led to exotic megafauna such as humans, is a tale of predation, starvation, and often protracted, painful death.

It's not for nothing that Harold Kushner's When Bad Things Happen to Good People" has sold over 4,000,000 copies.

Kushner was a Jew. He believed in the God of Abraham. Just as Christians and Muslims do. And yet over the centuries they have been inflicting God knows how much terrible pain and suffering on each other.

Without suffering there could be no courage, fortitude or adventure. Maybe God (and clearly some people) think those virtues are important. Have you ever read Edison's The Worm Ouroboros (one of the great pre-Tolkien fantasies)? The heroes preferred a world in which courage, nobility and adventure coexist with suffering than one in which none of these exist.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.

[Philip Goff] addresses the difficulty often invoked by infidels such as myself “of reconciling a loving all powerful God with the terrible suffering we see in the world.” The argument is that if God truly is both omnibenevolent and omnipotent – ideas central to Judeo-Christian belief – then he would not wish, nor indeed allow, that there should be suffering in the universe. So why is there so much suffering?

Of course, for any number of religious denominations, the answer revolves around God's mysterious ways. After all, invoking that allows them to sustain the comfort and the consolation that comes with believing they have access to moral commandments here and now and immortality and salvation there and then.

In fact, as I often note, I'd believe in them again if I could.

Indeed, the scale, intensity, ubiquity, and irremediability of that suffering is easy to under-imagine unless one is in the grip of it. But the constant possibility of suffering is built into our organic nature.

On the other hand, as the Camp Mystic tragedy revealed to us yet again, even in the grip of it what else is there?

"Camp Mystic, a girls' Christian summer camp in Texas, has a strong connection to faith, with many associated with the camp expressing that they feel God's presence there and relying on their faith to cope with the recent devastating floods. The tragedy has led to an outpouring of faith-based support and reflection on the role of spirituality in times of crisis." AI

Imagine if one of the young girls who died was your own daughter or sister or best friend. Without one or another spiritual denouement, you'd have to live with the "brute facticity" of a No God world.

Then this part:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... _pandemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_records
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

Our vulnerability extends from external catastrophes, such as earthquakes, floods, and fires, reaching down to our individual bodies with their many ways of going off course, and, as a result, imposing pain as the price of continuing existence. Moreover, the evolutionary mechanism the non-survival of the less-than-fit that has led to exotic megafauna such as humans, is a tale of predation, starvation, and often protracted, painful death.

It's not for nothing that Harold Kushner's When Bad Things Happen to Good People" has sold over 4,000,000 copies.

Kushner was a Jew. He believed in the God of Abraham. Just as Christians and Muslims do. And yet over the centuries they have been inflicting God knows how much terrible pain and suffering on each other.

Without suffering there could be no courage, fortitude or adventure. Maybe God (and clearly some people) think those virtues are important. Have you ever read Edison's The Worm Ouroboros (one of the great pre-Tolkien fantasies)? The heroes preferred a world in which courage, nobility and adventure coexist with suffering than one in which none of these exist.

If only the Gazans had that privilege. Any God Who thinks that can fuck right off.

[Alexiev]

If only the Gazans had that privilege. Any God Who thinks that can fuck right off.

It is not only God who thinks that, but Don Quixote, Brandoch Daha, Mallory, Shackleton, and every adventurer. How can there be adventure without suffering? How can there be courage without danger?

Of course GAza is horrible to us puny humans, but perhaps God sees it differently. Perhaps all those Palestinians who have suffered and died will have their reward. Of course those of us who don't believe that possible (including me), must judge by human standards. But if there is a God, isn't it likely that He knows people are better off dead than alive? Man was born to trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

I'll grand that "omnibenevolence" means nothing if God's standards differ from our own. If anything God allows or does is "good", then "omnibenevolence" is circular. Besides, all that nonsense about an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God seems to me like Old Testament hoopla saying, "My God is better than your puny God." After all, Odin is called "all seeing", but we know he needs those two ravens to bring him the news.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

If only the Gazans had that privilege. Any God Who thinks that can fuck right off.

It is not only God who thinks that, but Don Quixote, Brandoch Daha, Mallory, Shackleton, and every adventurer. How can there be adventure without suffering? How can there be courage without danger?

Of course GAza is horrible to us puny humans, but perhaps God sees it differently. Perhaps all those Palestinians who have suffered and died will have their reward. Of course those of us who don't believe that possible (including me), must judge by human standards. But if there is a God, isn't it likely that He knows people are better off dead than alive? Man was born to trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

I'll grand that "omnibenevolence" means nothing if God's standards differ from our own. If anything God allows or does is "good", then "omnibenevolence" is circular. Besides, all that nonsense about an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God seems to me like Old Testament hoopla saying, "My God is better than your puny God." After all, Odin is called "all seeing", but we know he needs those two ravens to bring him the news.

I really rate Shackleton. So what? Courage in a meaningless pursuit. With the insanity of WWI raging. If Love were the ground of being, then yes, our meaningless suffering, as maggots, is forgotten in our first moments of being imagoes. But it is not. This we know. For absolute certain.

Yet we still treat each other like filth.

[Alexiev]

I really rate Shackleton. So what? Courage in a meaningless pursuit. With the insanity of WWI raging. If Love were the ground of being, then yes, our meaningless suffering, as maggots, is forgotten in our first moments of being imagoes. But it is not. This we know. For absolute certain.

Yet we still treat each other like filth.

Everything is a "meaningless pursuit". Still, we muddle on the best we can.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I really rate Shackleton. So what? Courage in a meaningless pursuit. With the insanity of WWI raging. If Love were the ground of being, then yes, our meaningless suffering, as maggots, is forgotten in our first moments of being imagoes. But it is not. This we know. For absolute certain.

Yet we still treat each other like filth.

Everything is a "meaningless pursuit". Still, we muddle on the best we can.

Trying to raise a family in Gaza. OK. If you say so. As you muddle in luxury.

[Alexiev]

Trying to raise a family in Gaza.

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Trying to raise a family in Gaza.

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass.

Me too, it's hopeless. But it's trying, not try, prescriptive. A meaningless pursuit as equal as all others. Just as weightless. But we are weightless in luxury.

[Belinda]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.



Of course, for any number of religious denominations, the answer revolves around God's mysterious ways. After all, invoking that allows them to sustain the comfort and the consolation that comes with believing they have access to moral commandments here and now and immortality and salvation there and then.

In fact, as I often note, I'd believe in them again if I could.



On the other hand, as the Camp Mystic tragedy revealed to us yet again, even in the grip of it what else is there?

"Camp Mystic, a girls' Christian summer camp in Texas, has a strong connection to faith, with many associated with the camp expressing that they feel God's presence there and relying on their faith to cope with the recent devastating floods. The tragedy has led to an outpouring of faith-based support and reflection on the role of spirituality in times of crisis." AI

Imagine if one of the young girls who died was your own daughter or sister or best friend. Without one or another spiritual denouement, you'd have to live with the "brute facticity" of a No God world.

Then this part:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... _pandemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_records
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events




It's not for nothing that Harold Kushner's When Bad Things Happen to Good People" has sold over 4,000,000 copies.

Kushner was a Jew. He believed in the God of Abraham. Just as Christians and Muslims do. And yet over the centuries they have been inflicting God knows how much terrible pain and suffering on each other.

Without suffering there could be no courage, fortitude or adventure. Maybe God (and clearly some people) think those virtues are important. Have you ever read Edison's The Worm Ouroboros (one of the great pre-Tolkien fantasies)? The heroes preferred a world in which courage, nobility and adventure coexist with suffering than one in which none of these exist.

If only the Gazans had that privilege. Any God Who thinks that can fuck right off.

I agree. A measure of evil is justified but no good God would overkill.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Without suffering there could be no courage, fortitude or adventure. Maybe God (and clearly some people) think those virtues are important. Have you ever read Edison's The Worm Ouroboros (one of the great pre-Tolkien fantasies)? The heroes preferred a world in which courage, nobility and adventure coexist with suffering than one in which none of these exist.

If only the Gazans had that privilege. Any God Who thinks that can fuck right off.

I agree. A measure of evil is justified but no good God would overkill. What measure of evil is justified by a good God?

No good God kills.

[Alexiev]

No good God kills.

Why not? Suppose the good God knows that death is better than life? For who can know the mind of God?

The problem with judging God by human standards (the C.S. Lewis book is "God in the Docks", I think) is that it's easy to imagine a utopian life-after-death that makes "killing" an act of mercy and kindness. Nonetheless, one wonders if utopia necessarily abolishes pain and danger (and hence adventure and courage). Maybe, to some bold souls, the travails and adventures of a dangerous world might be preferrable to playing the harp and praising God all day, every day, eternally, ad infinitum.........

[Martin Peter Clarke]

No good God kills.

Why not? Suppose the good God knows that death is better than life? For who can know the mind of God?

The problem with judging God by human standards (the C.S. Lewis book is "God in the Docks", I think) is that it's easy to imagine a utopian life-after-death that makes "killing" an act of mercy and kindness. Nonetheless, one wonders if utopia necessarily abolishes pain and danger (and hence adventure and courage). Maybe, to some bold souls, the travails and adventures of a dangerous world might be preferrable to playing the harp and praising God all day, every day, eternally, ad infinitum.........

Because a good God should also be competent.

[Belinda]

If only the Gazans had that privilege. Any God Who thinks that can fuck right off.

I agree. A measure of evil is justified but no good God would overkill. What measure of evil is justified by a good God?

No good God kills.

Sure a good God kills! Everlasting life would be very unpleasant if only because my dog would never get rid of his fleas.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I agree. A measure of evil is justified but no good God would overkill. What measure of evil is justified by a good God?

No good God kills.

Sure a good God kills! Everlasting life would be very unpleasant if only because my dog would never get rid of his fleas.

Ah, but they'll be transcendent fleas. Former irritating, vampiric, disease vectors.

The transcendent doesn't work does it?