Philosophy of Mind

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Even funnier, is believing that believing in the (fifth) state of matter known as mind leads to solipsism, is as delusional as solipsism.

[popeye1945]

Rational belief only arises through the experience of the body; one can acquire true beliefs from a secondary source; the secondary source is that of creatures of the same biological makeup. This works only by confidence in the authority of the secondary source and should be regarded as tentative. Aside from perhaps a hospital's psych ward, there is no fear of solipsism becoming a real consideration—an amusing plaything. Each organism tends to be somewhat isolated as the center of its universe, its body being the mind's first idea and the mind's interface with the physical world. One needs to ask oneself if experience and biological consciousness are even separate things when one knows that apparent reality is the inseparable union of subject and object. The illusion of solipsism does not seem to have a place in the psyche of any species, for the formations of societies on every scale would be quite impossible. The closest to solipsism I can imagine is the life of the psychopath in that he/she does not identify with others, thus experiences no compassion for the suffering of others. This indicates that our ability to identify ourselves with the selves of others is guaranteed to deliver us from the evil of solipsism. I don't even think on psych wards, there are people treated for solipsism, and psychopathology is said to be incurable.

[Belinda]

Rational belief only arises through the experience of the body; one can acquire true beliefs from a secondary source; the secondary source is that of creatures of the same biological makeup. This works only by confidence in the authority of the secondary source and should be regarded as tentative. Aside from perhaps a hospital's psych ward, there is no fear of solipsism becoming a real consideration—an amusing plaything. Each organism tends to be somewhat isolated as the center of its universe, its body being the mind's first idea and the mind's interface with the physical world. One needs to ask oneself if experience and biological consciousness are even separate things when one knows that apparent reality is the inseparable union of subject and object. The illusion of solipsism does not seem to have a place in the psyche of any species, for the formations of societies on every scale would be quite impossible. The closest to solipsism I can imagine is the life of the psychopath in that he/she does not identify with others, thus experiences no compassion for the suffering of others. This indicates that our ability to identify ourselves with the selves of others is guaranteed to deliver us from the evil of solipsism. I don't even think on psych wards, there are people treated for solipsism, and psychopathology is said to be incurable.

That is true. Every primary school teacher knows that young children (and we all were young children once) learn by concrete methods. For example to teach number the teacher assembles a group of five objects that share common identifiable attribute such as 'red' or 'ball shaped'. Also the young child is introduced to number as social concept via plentiful social communications through language as stories and language as clear explicit instructions.

It's insightful of you to link solipsism to psychopathology. Psychopaths suffer in various ways from lack of feelings towards others. So do some who suffer from neuroses.

[popeye1945]

Rational belief only arises through the experience of the body; one can acquire true beliefs from a secondary source; the secondary source is that of creatures of the same biological makeup. This works only by confidence in the authority of the secondary source and should be regarded as tentative. Aside from perhaps a hospital's psych ward, there is no fear of solipsism becoming a real consideration—an amusing plaything. Each organism tends to be somewhat isolated as the center of its universe, its body being the mind's first idea and the mind's interface with the physical world. One needs to ask oneself if experiencing and biological consciousness are even separate things when one knows that apparent reality is the inseparable union of subject and object. The illusion of solipsism does not seem to have a place in the psyche of any species, for the formation of societies on every scale would be quite impossible. The closest to solipsism I can imagine is the life of the psychopath in that he/she does not identify with others, thus experiences no compassion for the suffering of others. This indicates that our ability to identify ourselves with the selves of others is guaranteed to deliver us from the evil of solipsism. I don't even think in psych wards; there are people treated for solipsism, and psychopathology is said to be incurable.

That is true. Every primary school teacher knows that young children (and we all were young children once) learn by concrete methods. For example, to teach numbers, the teacher assembles a group of five objects that share a common identifiable attribute, such as 'red' or 'ball-shaped'. Also, the young child is introduced to numbers as a social concept via plentiful social communications through language as stories and language as clear, explicit instructions.

It's insightful of you to link solipsism to psychopathology. Psychopaths suffer in various ways from a lack of feelings towards others. So do some who suffer from neuroses.

I am somewhat puzzled at your relating the process of teaching to what I had written. Please indicate how you derived that inference.

[Belinda]

Rational belief only arises through the experience of the body; one can acquire true beliefs from a secondary source; the secondary source is that of creatures of the same biological makeup. This works only by confidence in the authority of the secondary source and should be regarded as tentative. Aside from perhaps a hospital's psych ward, there is no fear of solipsism becoming a real consideration—an amusing plaything. Each organism tends to be somewhat isolated as the center of its universe, its body being the mind's first idea and the mind's interface with the physical world. One needs to ask oneself if experiencing and biological consciousness are even separate things when one knows that apparent reality is the inseparable union of subject and object. The illusion of solipsism does not seem to have a place in the psyche of any species, for the formation of societies on every scale would be quite impossible. The closest to solipsism I can imagine is the life of the psychopath in that he/she does not identify with others, thus experiences no compassion for the suffering of others. This indicates that our ability to identify ourselves with the selves of others is guaranteed to deliver us from the evil of solipsism. I don't even think in psych wards; there are people treated for solipsism, and psychopathology is said to be incurable.

That is true. Every primary school teacher knows that young children (and we all were young children once) learn by concrete methods. For example, to teach numbers, the teacher assembles a group of five objects that share a common identifiable attribute, such as 'red' or 'ball-shaped'. Also, the young child is introduced to numbers as a social concept via plentiful social communications through language as stories and language as clear, explicit instructions.

It's insightful of you to link solipsism to psychopathology. Psychopaths suffer in various ways from a lack of feelings towards others. So do some who suffer from neuroses.

I am somewhat puzzled at your relating the process of teaching to what I had written. Please indicate how you derived that inference.

An essential technique of maths mastery that builds on a child’s existing understanding
A highly effective framework for progressing pupils to abstract concepts like fractions
Involves concrete materials and pictorial/representational diagrams
Based on research by psychologist Jerome Bruner
Along with bar modelling and number bonds, it is an essential maths mastery strategy


Modern teachers of young children commonly use real , 'concrete', experiences to teach young children abstract universal ideas such as number, colour, shape, size, space, time, right, wrong, hard, soft, and so forth. You had written "Rational belief only arises though experiences of the body". ''Concrete' is the term used by educationalists to refer to 'experiences of the body'.
Concrete teaching methods use hands-on, real-life, or visual examples to make abstract concepts easier to understand.”

E.G field trips, actual objects in the classroom, dramas.

Bad effect of overuse of AI in the classroom and elsewhere. AI is language based without embedding in the concrete or the social .

[popeye1945]

That is true. Every primary school teacher knows that young children (and we all were young children once) learn by concrete methods. For example, to teach numbers, the teacher assembles a group of five objects that share a common identifiable attribute, such as 'red' or 'ball-shaped'. Also, the young child is introduced to numbers as a social concept via plentiful social communications through language as stories and language as clear, explicit instructions.

It's insightful of you to link solipsism to psychopathology. Psychopaths suffer in various ways from a lack of feelings towards others. So do some who suffer from neuroses.

I am somewhat puzzled at your relating the process of teaching to what I had written. Please indicate how you derived that inference.

An essential technique of maths mastery that builds on a child’s existing understanding
A highly effective framework for progressing pupils to abstract concepts like fractions
Involves concrete materials and pictorial/representational diagrams
Based on research by psychologist Jerome Bruner
Along with bar modelling and number bonds, it is an essential maths mastery strategy


Modern teachers of young children commonly use real , 'concrete', experiences to teach young children abstract universal ideas such as number, colour, shape, size, space, time, right, wrong, hard, soft, and so forth. You had written "Rational belief only arises though experiences of the body". ''Concrete' is the term used by educationalists to refer to 'experiences of the body'.
Concrete teaching methods use hands-on, real-life, or visual examples to make abstract concepts easier to understand.”

E.G field trips, actual objects in the classroom, dramas.

Bad effect of overuse of AI in the classroom and elsewhere. AI is language-based without embedding in the concrete or the social .

Thank you for some food for thought, I'll get back to you on it!!

[Belinda]

I am somewhat puzzled at your relating the process of teaching to what I had written. Please indicate how you derived that inference.

An essential technique of maths mastery that builds on a child’s existing understanding
A highly effective framework for progressing pupils to abstract concepts like fractions
Involves concrete materials and pictorial/representational diagrams
Based on research by psychologist Jerome Bruner
Along with bar modelling and number bonds, it is an essential maths mastery strategy


Modern teachers of young children commonly use real , 'concrete', experiences to teach young children abstract universal ideas such as number, colour, shape, size, space, time, right, wrong, hard, soft, and so forth. You had written "Rational belief only arises though experiences of the body". ''Concrete' is the term used by educationalists to refer to 'experiences of the body'.
Concrete teaching methods use hands-on, real-life, or visual examples to make abstract concepts easier to understand.”

E.G field trips, actual objects in the classroom, dramas.

Bad effect of overuse of AI in the classroom and elsewhere. AI is language-based without embedding in the concrete or the social .

Thank you for some food for thought, I'll get back to you on it!!

Thanks Popeye for considering my take on your own "biological" stance.

[popeye1945]

That is true. Every primary school teacher knows that young children (and we all were young children once) learn by concrete methods. For example, to teach numbers, the teacher assembles a group of five objects that share a common identifiable attribute, such as 'red' or 'ball-shaped'. Also, the young child is introduced to numbers as a social concept via plentiful social communications through language as stories and language as clear, explicit instructions.

It's insightful of you to link solipsism to psychopathology. Psychopaths suffer in various ways from a lack of feelings towards others. So do some who suffer from neuroses.

I am somewhat puzzled at your relating the process of teaching to what I had written. Please indicate how you derived that inference.

An essential technique of maths mastery that builds on a child’s existing understanding
A highly effective framework for progressing pupils to abstract concepts like fractions
Involves concrete materials and pictorial/representational diagrams
Based on research by psychologist Jerome Bruner
Along with bar modelling and number bonds, it is an essential maths mastery strategy


Modern teachers of young children commonly use real, 'concrete', experiences to teach young children abstract universal ideas such as number, colour, shape, size, space, time, right, wrong, hard, soft, and so forth. You had written, "Rational belief only arises through experiences of the body". ''Concrete'' is the term used by educationalists to refer to 'experiences of the body'.
Concrete teaching methods use hands-on, real-life, or visual examples to make abstract concepts easier to understand.”

E.G field trips, actual objects in the classroom, dramas.

Bad effect of overuse of AI in the classroom and elsewhere. AI is language-based without embedding in the concrete or the social.

Yes, this process makes sense; for the first phase of consciousness is the experience itself, for the body is the mind's first idea. It's experiences that open the door to understanding. That which you cannot sense is always to remain abstract. A blend of concrete sensing with something known to be abstract gives a connotation of what is to be derived. Then the abstract understanding is reflected to that which is the concrete example as a place-saver for the abstract understanding. Interesting, Belinda, thanks! Anything to add?

[Belinda]

I am somewhat puzzled at your relating the process of teaching to what I had written. Please indicate how you derived that inference.

An essential technique of maths mastery that builds on a child’s existing understanding
A highly effective framework for progressing pupils to abstract concepts like fractions
Involves concrete materials and pictorial/representational diagrams
Based on research by psychologist Jerome Bruner
Along with bar modelling and number bonds, it is an essential maths mastery strategy


Modern teachers of young children commonly use real, 'concrete', experiences to teach young children abstract universal ideas such as number, colour, shape, size, space, time, right, wrong, hard, soft, and so forth. You had written, "Rational belief only arises through experiences of the body". ''Concrete'' is the term used by educationalists to refer to 'experiences of the body'.
Concrete teaching methods use hands-on, real-life, or visual examples to make abstract concepts easier to understand.”

E.G field trips, actual objects in the classroom, dramas.

Bad effect of overuse of AI in the classroom and elsewhere. AI is language-based without embedding in the concrete or the social.

Yes, this process makes sense; for the first phase of consciousness is the experience itself, for the body is the mind's first idea. It's experiences that open the door to understanding. That which you cannot sense is always to remain abstract. A blend of concrete sensing with something known to be abstract gives a connotation of what is to be derived. Then the abstract understanding is reflected to that which is the concrete example as a place-saver for the abstract understanding. Interesting, Belinda, thanks! Anything to add?

Thanks. I'd like to add that young children playing are learning through play. Play is hands-on, and if social contacts are included in the play so much the better. Again, parents should strictly not allow access to phones and computers when those take valuable learning time away from real environments with adventurous play and human contact.

[popeye1945]

An essential technique of maths mastery that builds on a child’s existing understanding
A highly effective framework for progressing pupils to abstract concepts like fractions
Involves concrete materials and pictorial/representational diagrams
Based on research by psychologist Jerome Bruner
Along with bar modelling and number bonds, it is an essential maths mastery strategy


Modern teachers of young children commonly use real, 'concrete', experiences to teach young children abstract universal ideas such as number, colour, shape, size, space, time, right, wrong, hard, soft, and so forth. You had written, "Rational belief only arises through experiences of the body". ''Concrete'' is the term used by educationalists to refer to 'experiences of the body'.
Concrete teaching methods use hands-on, real-life, or visual examples to make abstract concepts easier to understand.”

E.G field trips, actual objects in the classroom, dramas.

Bad effect of overuse of AI in the classroom and elsewhere. AI is language-based without embedding in the concrete or the social.

Yes, this process makes sense; for the first phase of consciousness is the experience itself, for the body is the mind's first idea. It's experiences that open the door to understanding. That which you cannot sense is always to remain abstract. A blend of concrete sensing with something known to be abstract gives a connotation of what is to be derived. Then the abstract understanding is reflected to that which is the concrete example as a place-saver for the abstract understanding. Interesting, Belinda, thanks! Anything to add?

Thanks. I'd like to add that young children playing are learning through play. Play is hands-on, and if social contacts are included in the play so much the better. Again, parents should strictly not allow access to phones and computers when they take valuable learning time away from real environments with adventurous play and human contact.

Probably even AI would agree with you on that one. Whitehead on Education. I don't remember much of it, but I remember being most impressed. You seem to be echoing some of his materials.

[Belinda]

Yes, this process makes sense; for the first phase of consciousness is the experience itself, for the body is the mind's first idea. It's experiences that open the door to understanding. That which you cannot sense is always to remain abstract. A blend of concrete sensing with something known to be abstract gives a connotation of what is to be derived. Then the abstract understanding is reflected to that which is the concrete example as a place-saver for the abstract understanding. Interesting, Belinda, thanks! Anything to add?

Thanks. I'd like to add that young children playing are learning through play. Play is hands-on, and if social contacts are included in the play so much the better. Again, parents should strictly not allow access to phones and computers when they take valuable learning time away from real environments with adventurous play and human contact.

Probably even AI would agree with you on that one. Whitehead on Education. I don't remember much of it, but I remember being most impressed. You seem to be echoing some of his materials.

Undergraduate education 1970s and college of education 1970s both supported children's learning through play. It's also essential that they exchange ideas and feelings through language, so they need to talk with parents and with each other in reality rather than with disembodied voices and texts.

I think when you write about biology as the basis of mind, another way to phrase the idea is that mind is embodied what do you think?

[popeye1945]

Thanks. I'd like to add that young children playing are learning through play. Play is hands-on, and if social contacts are included in the play so much the better. Again, parents should strictly not allow access to phones and computers when they take valuable learning time away from real environments with adventurous play and human contact.

Probably even AI would agree with you on that one. Whitehead on Education. I don't remember much of it, but I remember being most impressed. You seem to be echoing some of his materials.

Undergraduate education 1970s and college of education 1970s both supported children's learning through play. It's also essential that they exchange ideas and feelings through language, so they need to talk with parents and with each other in reality rather than with disembodied voices and texts.

I think when you write about biology as the basis of the mind, another way to phrase the idea is that the mind is embodied what do you think?

Experience is the fuel for thought, and through judgment, meaning then arises. Certainly, both experience and judgment are the property of subjectivity as is their product, meaning. Children should be taught that they are the sources of meaning and the creators of values; it is their biological heritage. The generations that preceded them created the values that surround them today. It is their job to judge whether they are still appropriate to the present. Not knowing this instills a sense of powerlessness, and the world then just happens to them; they do not feel to be agents or creators.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Neurons are biased, that is at the bottom of the mind's emergence from biology.

[popeye1945]

Neurons are biased, that is at the bottom of the mind's emergence from biology.

Indeed, the body created the brain/mind; the mind did not create the body. Do you believe that consciousness begins with the brain/mind or with a conscious body? Knowing the brain developed from the inside out seems to indicate a need for ever greater function in the outer world, perhaps making demands upon a conscious body for continued construction. Could you express your above statement differently? It seems a bit obscure to me.

[Darkneos]

Even funnier is how anyone arguing for a mind doesn’t see how that would lead to solipsism.

Mind is not merely an alternative to matter, but extends into all matter beyond brain and body proper and into environment including other minds. Solipsism is rebutted by the attitude that other minds , beside objects of experience are also subjects of experience.


I say "attitude" in preference to 'fact' because I understand the problem of other minds as concisely stated by Darkneos. I laughed out loud when as a child someone told me about the problem , and then as a reflective adult I experienced for myself a brief episode of no -ego.
When devoid of ego other minds are more, not less, significant.

There is always an ego, even if you're not conscious of it. There is no no-ego experience.

Also mind does not extend beyond the brain and body, it sounds like you don't understand the problem.