The Democrat Party Hates America

[Alexis Jacobi]

Immanuel Can: So what are the limitations of the discipline of physics?

Dubious: Who knows, and why is that important?

It is really really important — from the perspective of those who rely on what is non-physical, metaphysical and supernatural.

A large part of— the larger part I reckon — of many of yous hardened opposition to IC’s position in the recent spats is due to your positions as hard atheists.

There is a whole range of “things” that are vitally important to us, to man, which are not physically locatable. They may be part of the Kosmos but they simply cannot be physical and quantifiable.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Not only do I admit it, I have been at pains to explain how I know I don't know. It's the same reason I know you don't know.

This is where, dearest Wilbur, I think you are wrong. Those with relationships with the metaphysical or supernatural other, stand in relationship to something non-physical but hyper-intelligent. You know nothing of this nor could you admit that such could well “exist”.

Knowledge at this level is peculiar and is not of the order of conventional knowledge. This is why the distinction between physics-stuff (what is potentially knowable eventually) and what is realized on other levels in consciousness, is important. But this flies over your head. Or (more likely) you need to build a wall so as to invalidate it.

[FlashDangerpants]

In your mind, how do you think the confession you demand there relates to the thing he was trying to tell you that you wouldn't permit him to say?

Troll.

The question was legit, and it is something you would need to think about if you ever wanted to become reasonable at this philosophy thing.

[Immanuel Can]

Then admit it: you don't know what "physics" can or cannot cover...

Blimey. Just how bonkers are you, Mr Can? Have you genuinely convinced yourself that I haven't admitted that I don't know what physics can cover consistently from the beginning of this farce?

Not only do I admit it, I have been at pains to explain how I know I don't know. It's the same reason I know you don't know.

Oh. So your theory is that because you admit you don't know what physics is about, that nobody else can? Well, that's going to make any physicist's job really, really difficult. He's really never going to know what he's about.

But if you say that's how you see it, that's how you see it, I guess.

However, that means that you can't say that physics will ever be able to say anything at all about mind, self, reason, morals, personhood, cognition...because you don't know what physics is really about, according to you, and you suppose it can't be known, therefore?

[Immanuel Can]

In your mind, how do you think the confession you demand there relates to the thing he was trying to tell you that you wouldn't permit him to say?

Troll.

The question was legit...

Trolling.

[Will Bouwman]

Not only do I admit it, I have been at pains to explain how I know I don't know. It's the same reason I know you don't know.

This is where, dearest Wilbur, I think you are wrong.

Maybe I am, that's the thing about not knowing.

Those with relationships with the metaphysical or supernatural other, stand in relationship to something non-physical but hyper-intelligent.

Well Gus, what we know is that some people claim to have particular experiences. I am fully prepared to accept that the experiences are real, what I don't claim to know is the cause of any experience that some people attribute to the metaphysical or supernatural. I'm not an expert on neuroscience but, as I understand, all conscious experiences are associated with patterns of brain activity. This raises the possibility that supernatural experiences are the result of misfiring neurons. Until that hypothesis can be ruled out, it, and the interpretation that there is something supernatural, remain underdetermined.

You know nothing of this nor could you admit that such could well “exist”.

Watch me Gus: I admit there could be a supernatural thingy.

[Will Bouwman]

Oh. So your theory is that because you admit you don't know what physics is about, that nobody else can?

Well, I am happy to agree with your facile physics deals with physical stuff, but I and you even less, don't know the limit of what phenomena are responsive to the methods of physics. Bear in mind phenomena are human responses to stimuli. As I was saying to that other half wit (you two should get together) there are different explanations for the source of stimuli.

[Immanuel Can]

Oh. So your theory is that because you admit you don't know what physics is about, that nobody else can?

Well, I am happy to agree with your facile physics deals with physical stuff,...

At last.

Why is it so hard to get you to (very grudgingly and, if possible, also irrelevantly insultingly) "agree" to the painfully obvious? Is obdurate resistance to the truth a virtue, where you're living? Or is it that ad hominems pass for wisdom, in your neighbourhood? Or both?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Well Gus, what we know is that some people claim to have particular experiences. I am fully prepared to accept that the experiences are real, what I don't claim to know is the cause of any experience that some people attribute to the metaphysical or supernatural. I'm not an expert on neuroscience but, as I understand, all conscious experiences are associated with patterns of brain activity. This raises the possibility that supernatural experiences are the result of misfiring neurons. Until that hypothesis can be ruled out, it, and the interpretation that there is something supernatural, remain underdetermined.

I do remember — it was years ago now — that you were kind enough to condescend to converse with me off-forum. You spoke of “the god of the gaps” and that sort of thing. You seemed to have a genuine disdain for Christianity — not quite contempt but close (as do many of course).

But now — all praises to Allah, owner of human destinies — you seem to have a bit more toleration for the “religious impulse” or the spiritual impulse as it might be termed. I admit that for those without such a spiritual life that it is next-to-impossible for them to understand the dynamic in the relationship.

Having a visionary experience is one thing that could be described as neurological. But what has always fascinated and impressed me is far more the issue of “guidance” (the word providence is apt) in the course of living life. And in my own case that is where the “miraculousness” shows up. That and the processes that seem to open up as one begins one’s “moral inventory”.

what I don't claim to know is the cause of any experience that some people attribute to the metaphysical or supernatural.

Fully understood.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Watch me Gus: I admit there could be a supernatural thingy.

I wept when I read this! So beautiful! So humble!

[Dubious]

But physics...what does the discipline of physics deal with? What "knowledge" does it address? Is it all knowledge, or something specific? That's the question.

Specific! What you're implying is that physicists still don't know what the subject is.

These are the specifics....

Physics is the science that seeks to understand the fundamental principles governing the universe. It explores matter, energy, forces, motion, and the interactions between them. From the tiniest subatomic particles to the vastness of galaxies, physics attempts to explain how things work at all scales.

Some major branches include:

- **Classical mechanics** – Describes motion and forces in everyday systems.
- **Quantum mechanics** – Explores behavior at atomic and subatomic levels.
- **Thermodynamics** – Studies heat, energy, and work.
- **Electromagnetism** – Examines electric and magnetic forces.
- **Relativity** – Deals with the nature of space, time, and gravity.

[Dubious]

Immanuel Can: So what are the limitations of the discipline of physics?

Dubious: Who knows, and why is that important?

It is really really important — from the perspective of those who rely on what is non-physical, metaphysical and supernatural.

What you mention are different perspectives existing in their own domains having nothing to do with physics which exists in its own...meaning metaphysics and the supernatural are not of the least importance to physics.

Stick to the subject.

A large part of— the larger part I reckon — of many of yous hardened opposition to IC’s position in the recent spats is due to your positions as hard atheists.

This statement is not only one of hardened stupidity but petrified stupidity. Physics, or any scientific subject has nothing whatsoever to do with theism or atheism!

There is a whole range of “things” that are vitally important to us, to man, which are not physically locatable. They may be part of the Kosmos but they simply cannot be physical and quantifiable.

That may be true. Absolutely true is that what is of importance to man is of zero importance to the universe.

[Immanuel Can]

But physics...what does the discipline of physics deal with? What "knowledge" does it address? Is it all knowledge, or something specific? That's the question.

Specific! What you're implying is that physicists still don't know what the subject is.

Oh, heck no. I'm not implying any such thing. I'm pointing out, rather, that your view would make "physics" utterly indistinguishable from "knowledge" generally. I think that would be crazy, and I can't imagine anybody would think it, but I'm still willing to hear any argument for it you might have, if that is, indeed, what you were asserting; however, you've already debunked it by pointing out specific fields with which physics rightfully deals...

These are the specifics....

Physics is the science that seeks to understand the fundamental principles governing the universe. It explores matter, energy, forces, motion, and the interactions between them. From the tiniest subatomic particles to the vastness of galaxies, physics attempts to explain how things work at all scales.

Some major branches include:

- **Classical mechanics** – Describes motion and forces in everyday systems.
- **Quantum mechanics** – Explores behavior at atomic and subatomic levels.
- **Thermodynamics** – Studies heat, energy, and work.
- **Electromagnetism** – Examines electric and magnetic forces.
- **Relativity** – Deals with the nature of space, time, and gravity.

This list, of course, does not include things like mind, consciousness, social conditions, morality, rationality, selfhood, personhood, justice, or even the epistemic nature of science itself. It's strictly physical stuff, which is exactly what I've been saying physics is about all along.

I see we agree about what physics is...and isn't. Now if we can only get Will to realize that there are things physics presently cannot, and likely will not ever explain, we'll be home. I think he's finally seeing it, so maybe we're finally all on the same page.

[Dubious]

This list, of course, does not include things like mind, consciousness, social conditions, morality, rationality, selfhood, personhood, justice, or even the epistemic nature of science itself.

Of course not! Why does this even have to be mentioned! Everything you list exists within its own domain of study and research, much of it overlapping.

I see we agree about what physics is...and isn't. Now if we can only get Will to realize that there are things physics presently cannot, and likely will not ever explain, we'll be home. I think he's finally seeing it, so maybe we're finally all on the same page.

I don't believe anyone who thinks rationally would ever expect physics to explain everything, especially for sectors to which it has no reference; it can only explain what it seeks to know and inquire about, as is true for all areas of inquiry whether personally relating to man or indifferently and abstractly relating to the universe.

[Walker]

I don't believe anyone who thinks rationally would ever expect physics to explain everything, especially for sectors to which it has no reference; it can only explain what it seeks to know and inquire about, as is true for all areas of inquiry whether personally relating to man or indifferently and abstractly relating to the universe.

Well, what if physics sought to know and inquire about everything?
Look to the principle rather than a specific application of the principle.

Physics studies the causes and effects.
Every moment is caused, and affects.
Change, like physical motion, indicates effect.