Christianity as Philosophy

[Martin Peter Clarke]

All versions of theology are attempting to explain the impossible in terms of the incredible. The foundation of all versions of religion is dogma, an instance of faith, and all are equally indistinguishable from fiction, intellectually recessive, and should be treated accordingly.

This is a naive, simplistic explanation of religion. Myth and ritual are the foundations of religion, not dogma. Some scholars suggest that ritual preceded myth. After all, non-verbal animals practice rituals, and the "myth-ritual school" in anthropology theorized that myths were explanations of those rituals that developed with language.

Come Sir! Advocate's post was fine rhetoric, with logos minimized. Yours is maximized.

[Alexiev]

All versions of theology are attempting to explain the impossible in terms of the incredible. The foundation of all versions of religion is dogma, an instance of faith, and all are equally indistinguishable from fiction, intellectually recessive, and should be treated accordingly.

This is a naive, simplistic explanation of religion. Myth and ritual are the foundations of religion, not dogma. Some scholars suggest that ritual preceded myth. After all, non-verbal animals practice rituals, and the "myth-ritual school" in anthropology theorized that myths were explanations of those rituals that developed with language.

Come Sir! Advocate's post was fine rhetoric, with logos minimized. Yours is maximized.

The alliteration is, I suppose, clever, albeit redundant. I wonder, however, about the claim that fiction (like religion is) "intellectually recessive". Huh? What does that mean?

[Belinda]

This is a naive, simplistic explanation of religion. Myth and ritual are the foundations of religion, not dogma. Some scholars suggest that ritual preceded myth. After all, non-verbal animals practice rituals, and the "myth-ritual school" in anthropology theorized that myths were explanations of those rituals that developed with language.

Come Sir! Advocate's post was fine rhetoric, with logos minimized. Yours is maximized.

The alliteration is, I suppose, clever, albeit redundant. I wonder, however, about the claim that fiction (like religion is) "intellectually recessive". Huh? What does that mean?

If a work of fiction holds a serious theme it is intellectually worthwhile.

Martin, I doubt you really mean that novels, poetry, theatre, and thought experiments are all of them rubbish. Isn't there something good about some of them which makes them works of art?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Come Sir! Advocate's post was fine rhetoric, with logos minimized. Yours is maximized.

The alliteration is, I suppose, clever, albeit redundant. I wonder, however, about the claim that fiction (like religion is) "intellectually recessive". Huh? What does that mean?

If a work of fiction holds a serious theme it is intellectually worthwhile.

Martin, I doubt you really mean that novels, poetry, theatre, and thought experiments are all of them rubbish. Isn't there something good about some of them which makes them works of art?

There is only good about all of them Belinda. They speak for us, yearn for us. I have a Thomas Mann anthology on my desk. Tin Drum is the name of my nearest 2nd hand bookshop 200 yds away. I'm hoping to take my date to see Giselle by the Ballet of Japan in July. I am deliriously overwhelmed in my Stendhal's Syndrome by nature. And art. And music. And film. I silently wept at every Planet in the Suite a couple of weeks ago at De Montfort Hall. And Gavin Briars was incredible at St. Mary de Castro. Even without Tom Waites.

F*ck "intellectually recessive"! Or rather I'd rather be that than some sterile intellectual Rubik's Cube solver.

In tears now over Comfortably Numb.

[Belinda]

The alliteration is, I suppose, clever, albeit redundant. I wonder, however, about the claim that fiction (like religion is) "intellectually recessive". Huh? What does that mean?

If a work of fiction holds a serious theme it is intellectually worthwhile.

Martin, I doubt you really mean that novels, poetry, theatre, and thought experiments are all of them rubbish. Isn't there something good about some of them which makes them works of art?

There is only good about all of them Belinda. They speak for us, yearn for us. I have a Thomas Mann anthology on my desk. Tin Drum is the name of my nearest 2nd hand bookshop 200 yds away. I'm hoping to take my date to see Giselle by the Ballet of Japan in July. I am deliriously overwhelmed in my Stendhal's Syndrome by nature. And art. And music. And film. I silently wept at every Planet in the Suite a couple of weeks ago at De Montfort Hall. And Gavin Briars was incredible at St. Mary de Castro. Even without Tom Waites.

F*ck "intellectually recessive"! Or rather I'd rather be that than some sterile intellectual Rubik's Cube solver.

In tears now over Comfortably Numb.

Sorry, I didn't read the quotations properly. Your message received and understood.

[Belinda]

All versions of theology are attempting to explain the impossible in terms of the incredible. The foundation of all versions of religion is dogma, an instance of faith, and all are equally indistinguishable from fiction, intellectually recessive, and should be treated accordingly.

This is a naive, simplistic explanation of religion. Myth and ritual are the foundations of religion, not dogma. Some scholars suggest that ritual preceded myth. After all, non-verbal animals practice rituals, and the "myth-ritual school" in anthropology theorized that myths were explanations of those rituals that developed with language.

Theatre grew from religion. The more entertaining Christian churches are those with processions, incense, music, decorations, and vestments.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

All versions of theology are attempting to explain the impossible in terms of the incredible. The foundation of all versions of religion is dogma, an instance of faith, and all are equally indistinguishable from fiction, intellectually recessive, and should be treated accordingly.

This is a naive, simplistic explanation of religion. Myth and ritual are the foundations of religion, not dogma. Some scholars suggest that ritual preceded myth. After all, non-verbal animals practice rituals, and the "myth-ritual school" in anthropology theorized that myths were explanations of those rituals that developed with language.

Theatre grew from religion. The more entertaining Christian churches are those with processions, incense, music, decorations, and vestments.

Yes. C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion'; penis envy. And who was it who said church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture? Somebody should put ayahuasca in the communion wine. Although charismatics just need APES. Altered states of Awareness, Peer Pressure, Enhanced Expectations and Suggestibility. None of it too far from Dionysus. Including the sparagmos and omophagia of the Christ tragedy. Whence comedy in mocking reaction to the sick grimness of it all, even the sublime Theban plays.

[Belinda]

This is a naive, simplistic explanation of religion. Myth and ritual are the foundations of religion, not dogma. Some scholars suggest that ritual preceded myth. After all, non-verbal animals practice rituals, and the "myth-ritual school" in anthropology theorized that myths were explanations of those rituals that developed with language.

Theatre grew from religion. The more entertaining Christian churches are those with processions, incense, music, decorations, and vestments.

Yes. C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion'; penis envy. And who was it who said church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture? Somebody should put ayahuasca in the communion wine. Although charismatics just need APES. Altered states of Awareness, Peer Pressure, Enhanced Expectations and Suggestibility. None of it too far from Dionysus. Including the sparagmos and omophagia of the Christ tragedy. Whence comedy in mocking reaction to the sick grimness of it all, even the sublime Theban plays.

Two points that really intrigue me:-

* "church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture"
and
* I'm glad to learn about "C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion".

6th BCE Greece fits the time scale of Axial Age.It's always a nice feeling when an idea fits with one's own particular interest

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Theatre grew from religion. The more entertaining Christian churches are those with processions, incense, music, decorations, and vestments.

Yes. C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion'; penis envy. And who was it who said church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture? Somebody should put ayahuasca in the communion wine. Although charismatics just need APES. Altered states of Awareness, Peer Pressure, Enhanced Expectations and Suggestibility. None of it too far from Dionysus. Including the sparagmos and omophagia of the Christ tragedy. Whence comedy in mocking reaction to the sick grimness of it all, even the sublime Theban plays.

Two points that really intrigue me:-

* "church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture"
and
* I'm glad to learn about "C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion".

6th BCE Greece fits the time scale of Axial Age.It's always a nice feeling when an idea fits with one's own particular interest

Just me skimming stones on the lake. Shamanism comes first and transmutes in to 'mundane' human drama, ouroboros. Our ids are as primal, as visceral as it gets, always there, next step, a fall, from the superego, which sublimates it, via the ego. Shamanism, the seanchaí, is involved whenever we read; smoke and mirrors, self deceit. When we read or even hear something smart we are the storyteller, the beholder and become proudly smarter. We're all solipsists. It enables us to lie and troll for our truth.

[Immanuel Can]

In the ‘Good Old Days’ this country considered itself Christian.
Unfortunately, modern rights have ceased to be liberal, and have become a bigoted rule book, with critics Cancelled.

This is called "cause and effect."

When you remove the grounds of public belief in the intrinsic value of human beings, that they are "made in the image of God," and thus you undermine their natural rights to life, liberty and property, and then try to make rights simply "float" on nothing at all except the conditioning of a particular society, it's not long until people begin to doubt that any rights exist at all.

We'll see how far that goes; because it seems that right now, society is determined to divest itself of all belief in the specialness of being human, and thereby to render all talk of "rights" incoherent to themselves.

We'll see how we get along without both God and rights. Coming soon to a theatre near you.

[Belinda]

Yes. C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion'; penis envy. And who was it who said church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture? Somebody should put ayahuasca in the communion wine. Although charismatics just need APES. Altered states of Awareness, Peer Pressure, Enhanced Expectations and Suggestibility. None of it too far from Dionysus. Including the sparagmos and omophagia of the Christ tragedy. Whence comedy in mocking reaction to the sick grimness of it all, even the sublime Theban plays.

Two points that really intrigue me:-

* "church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture"
and
* I'm glad to learn about "C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion".

6th BCE Greece fits the time scale of Axial Age.It's always a nice feeling when an idea fits with one's own particular interest

Just me skimming stones on the lake. Shamanism comes first and transmutes in to 'mundane' human drama, ouroboros. Our ids are as primal, as visceral as it gets, always there, next step, a fall, from the superego, which sublimates it, via the ego. Shamanism, the seanchaí, is involved whenever we read; smoke and mirrors, self deceit. When we read or even hear something smart we are the storyteller, the beholder and become proudly smarter. We're all solipsists. It enables us to lie and troll for our truth.

There was a young man from Madrid
Who was troubled a lot by his Id
Superego said Musn't
His Ego said Dursn't
But by Golly he jolly well did.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Two points that really intrigue me:-

* "church services are a concert interrupted by a lecture"
and
* I'm glad to learn about "C6th BCE Greece where drama was humanized, brought down to earth, from female, drug crazed, cannibalistic, orgiastic cult 'religion".

6th BCE Greece fits the time scale of Axial Age.It's always a nice feeling when an idea fits with one's own particular interest

Just me skimming stones on the lake. Shamanism comes first and transmutes in to 'mundane' human drama, ouroboros. Our ids are as primal, as visceral as it gets, always there, next step, a fall, from the superego, which sublimates it, via the ego. Shamanism, the seanchaí, is involved whenever we read; smoke and mirrors, self deceit. When we read or even hear something smart we are the storyteller, the beholder and become proudly smarter. We're all solipsists. It enables us to lie and troll for our truth.

There was a young man from Madrid
Who was troubled a lot by his Id
Superego said Musn't
His Ego said Dursn't
But by Golly he jolly well did.

I meant to say, very good!

[MikeNovack]

When you remove the grounds of public belief in the intrinsic value of human beings, that they are "made in the image of God," and thus you undermine their natural rights to life, liberty and property, and then try to make rights simply "float" on nothing at all except the conditioning of a particular society, it's not long until people begin to doubt that any rights exist at all.

We'll see how far that goes; because it seems that right now, society is determined to divest itself of all belief in the specialness of being human, and thereby to render all talk of "rights" incoherent to themselves.

We'll see how we get along without both God and rights. Coming soon to a theatre near you.

If you think this, how do you imagine human societies managed before Christianity? We have been social animals from long before we have been modern humans. And while our pride assigns us a genus Homo of our own, our two close relatives in Pan are also social animals. In other words, all the species of the genus Pan-Homo being social animals, we have probably been social animals for several million years.

From the Middle East we have written records going back around 4000 years. We can see from these that people back then certainly had concepts of rights and duties.

Just because some Christian society bases its concepts of the value of human beings, their rights and duties, etc. on Christianity doesn't mean societies licking Christianity lacked the concepts (just based differently)

[Immanuel Can]

When you remove the grounds of public belief in the intrinsic value of human beings, that they are "made in the image of God," and thus you undermine their natural rights to life, liberty and property, and then try to make rights simply "float" on nothing at all except the conditioning of a particular society, it's not long until people begin to doubt that any rights exist at all.

We'll see how far that goes; because it seems that right now, society is determined to divest itself of all belief in the specialness of being human, and thereby to render all talk of "rights" incoherent to themselves.

We'll see how we get along without both God and rights. Coming soon to a theatre near you.

If you think this, how do you imagine human societies managed before Christianity?

Very badly, obviously. We call those times “the Roman Empire,” and it fell apart in disastrous misery. Before that, there was a variety of social dysfunctions across the civilized world, most incorporating the wholesale abuse and destruction of the poor, and of women and children, among other things.

The concept of “rights” is actually relatively new. It appears first with Locke, a Protestant. Before then, the idea that every human had something called “rights” was practically unknown. The elites had privileges, and everybody else had dirt.

From the Middle East we have written records going back around 4000 years. We can see from these that people back then certainly had concepts of rights and duties.

Duties, yes…as in that slaves could be treated in many ways, but aristocrats in different ones. But no rights.

Check it out. You won’t find they even have the concept that all human beings have some vague owed-equality, or some “rights”. Rather, it seems obvious, in the ancient world, that the mere fact that one is privileged is evidence of the favour of the gods, and the fact that one eats dirt is evidence of the gods’ disfavour — and that the difference itself is a sacred fact.

[Belinda]

When you remove the grounds of public belief in the intrinsic value of human beings, that they are "made in the image of God," and thus you undermine their natural rights to life, liberty and property, and then try to make rights simply "float" on nothing at all except the conditioning of a particular society, it's not long until people begin to doubt that any rights exist at all.

We'll see how far that goes; because it seems that right now, society is determined to divest itself of all belief in the specialness of being human, and thereby to render all talk of "rights" incoherent to themselves.

We'll see how we get along without both God and rights. Coming soon to a theatre near you.

If you think this, how do you imagine human societies managed before Christianity?

Very badly, obviously. We call those times “the Roman Empire,” and it fell apart in disastrous misery. Before that, there was a variety of social dysfunctions across the civilized world, most incorporating the wholesale abuse and destruction of the poor, and of women and children, among other things.

The concept of “rights” is actually relatively new. It appears first with Locke, a Protestant. Before then, the idea that every human had something called “rights” was practically unknown. The elites had privileges, and everybody else had dirt.

From the Middle East we have written records going back around 4000 years. We can see from these that people back then certainly had concepts of rights and duties.

Duties, yes…as in that slaves could be treated in many ways, but aristocrats in different ones. But no rights.

Check it out. You won’t find they even have the concept that all human beings have some vague owed-equality, or some “rights”. Rather, it seems obvious, in the ancient world, that the mere fact that one is privileged is evidence of the favour of the gods, and the fact that one eats dirt is evidence of the gods’ disfavour — and that the difference itself is a sacred fact.

But Immanuel, the Roman Empire happened a long time , centuries, after the major Bronze Age influence of Moses and Abraham.

The Ten Commandments are a statement of human rights and responsibilities.